Choice = Segregation

[VR4_Craver]

Originally Posted by Robert

Let me touch on both topics here raised at once.




Just like I am being blamed of sweeping statements, you two are making huge generalities on the issue which are not fact. The reality is a small percentage of people abuse the system and ruin it for others. It is these people you see mostly. Secondly the few blacks that have money do not represent the majority. The majority do not live the lives you speak of. When you live a life where you're bumbarded by news media telling you to act gangstar and live like a thug tell me you'd be different. If you do you're a fool. We are all products of our envoirnment and are influenced by what we see/taught while young.

There are however a huge number of people, in Cali estimated 1 million illegal workers working for cash and living lives. These people never qualify for the services you saw covered.

Will there always be people who take advantage of the system? Yes, of course. However they will be of all race and color, it is in peoples nature to be like this.

However the tone given above is boarderline on racial, they aren't dumb because they had a 4th child. There is no where in the law that dictates the level of income required to have a child. If the coin was flipped on you, one could say at your income you shoulndt be having a child. Minority or not. I think you're racist.

Steve, good points. Watch the doc. I suggested. In this areas I am probably more educated on the influences of media and racial descrimination then you are. Trust me when I tell you the comments I have made are not without fact. I however will leave it up to your interest and smarts to discover these on your own.

Start with these...
http://www.mediachannel.org/ownership/chart.shtml
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/cool/giants/
More in racisim
http://weeklywire.com/ww/09-14-98/nash_film-video.html
http://www.medialit.org/reading_room/article384.html
http://www.mediachannel.org/ownership/chart.shtml
http://www.yale.edu/ypq/articles/oct99/oct99b.html

There is a tone to learn and there is more out there. Do your research, learn and then develope and opinion greater then your limited personal experience. That IMO is the only way to prevent yourself from becoming ignorant of fact.

My "tone" was far from being racist. Yes I did point out facts. Unless what I witness myself is no longer considered fact. I guess I should be considered racist if I get pissed off about someone living off the money I bust my ass each day to have taken out in taxes, so they can have more kids and live a better life then I do. The argument here was that blacks and mexicans are being labeled as gangsters by the media, therefore live that kind of life style. Yet, 4 out of the 6 sources you mention have something to do with the media. Its like watching the weather on your 6 o'clock news and seeing rain the next 3 days then going onto the website and seeing sunshine and high of 90. Completely contradictory. Also, I am the fool for letting others tell me how I am gonna turn out? No. The fool is the one who listens to people who are paid to create controversy like that to get ratings. There is no coin flip needed robert I dont make nearly enough to give my son the kind of life I want him to live. So using your "coin" logic I should just give up and live off of welfare my whole life and never strive to achieve anything.

As far as the research goes:

http://www.in.gov/fssa/family/welfare/welfare.html
Look at that one for Indiana.
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k2/GovAid/GovAid.htm
this one to show that while on goverment assitance Substance abuse rose.
http://www.house.gov/pence/rsc/gov_waste.shtml
and on that one you can download .pdf's showing Medicaid and Food Stamp Waste/Abuse.

[GT40FIED]

I'm just not sure you can blame media for much of anything. I mean sure...it's certainly out there, but personal choice has nothing to do with images portrayed in the media. I mean...I constantly see ads for soda and candy and whatnot, but I don't go out and buy them because I see other people enjoying them. Likewise, when I see some asshole white collar white guy on trial for embezelment it doesn't make me want to go out and do the same. That's what rappers essentially do...they portray a life of crime and excess (generally). The only way that such media can influence you is if you let it.

I think the broader problem is that while some blacks may buy into the "thug" lifestyle, many others endorse it by keeping their mouth shut. I mean...if you're constantly told that the only way you can ever get ahead in life is as a musician or an athlete and there's no one around to tell you that you're smart and worth more than that, then you might just believe it. That's not to say you can take personal responsibility out of the equation...everyone chooses their own path and there's no reason as to why. I mean you could blame it on single parent households...births to single black mothers is roughly 70% of all black births. Then again there will always be people to show you that you can succeed in that situation. Sure, it's easier to take the wrong route in life...but again, that's a personal choice. If you just want to give up and blame everyone else for how shitty your life is, I suppose you can. You can also stand up and take responsibility for your life and the direction it takes.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

I'm just not sure you can blame media for much of anything. I mean sure...it's certainly out there, but personal choice has nothing to do with images portrayed in the media. I mean...I constantly see ads for soda and candy and whatnot, but I don't go out and buy them because I see other people enjoying them. Likewise, when I see some asshole white collar white guy on trial for embezelment it doesn't make me want to go out and do the same. That's what rappers essentially do...they portray a life of crime and excess (generally). The only way that such media can influence you is if you let it.

I think the broader problem is that while some blacks may buy into the "thug" lifestyle, many others endorse it by keeping their mouth shut. I mean...if you're constantly told that the only way you can ever get ahead in life is as a musician or an athlete and there's no one around to tell you that you're smart and worth more than that, then you might just believe it. That's not to say you can take personal responsibility out of the equation...everyone chooses their own path and there's no reason as to why. I mean you could blame it on single parent households...births to single black mothers is roughly 70% of all black births. Then again there will always be people to show you that you can succeed in that situation. Sure, it's easier to take the wrong route in life...but again, that's a personal choice. If you just want to give up and blame everyone else for how shitty your life is, I suppose you can. You can also stand up and take responsibility for your life and the direction it takes.

Yes the situation is more dynamic then JUST THE MEDIA however it is the largest single source of influence today for young people. It outweights parenting and school in time spent with it and the interest level. It is a mutlifasited approach through tv, internet and music.

One must realize the impact the media has on todays childern, it is like a plauge. It has quietly crept into every household, first by being out friend but now no longer represents individuals values. The media has taken a different direction then 50 years ago. Do the research.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Robert

Yes the situation is more dynamic then JUST THE MEDIA however it is the largest single source of influence today for young people. It outweights parenting and school in time spent with it and the interest level. It is a mutlifasited approach through tv, internet and music.

One must realize the impact the media has on todays childern, it is like a plauge. It has quietly crept into every household, first by being out friend but now no longer represents individuals values. The media has taken a different direction then 50 years ago. Do the research.

The problem I see with a media based argument for societal problems is pretty simple. It's rather hard to take something everyone sees (like the media) and apply it to a small cross section of society. I mean...every kid, not just underpriviledged blacks, sees rap videos, the way blacks are portrayed on TV (especially on the news), and the message that is generated about minorities as a whole. But most don't choose to follow in that image. That's like saying that every girl who sees a Britney Spears video (the ones before she got all fat, anyway) will go straight to the mall and buy skanky clothes. Sure, some of them will because they're impressionable and lack a sense of personal identity but by and large it's not true. The people who are effected by media are probably going to end up heading in the wrong direction anyway because they'll always need someone to tell them what to do and, in most cases, anyone who wants to tell you what to do and how to think isn't doing it in your best interest. That's why I think the black community, particularly younger articulate blacks, need to step up and make their voices heard. Let's face facts...some people are already too far gone to be swayed now by a different lifestyle. But if you can get to younger kids and have intelligent people watch out for them I think you've got a chance.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

The problem I see with a media based argument for societal problems is pretty simple. It's rather hard to take something everyone sees (like the media) and apply it to a small cross section of society. I mean...every kid, not just underpriviledged blacks, sees rap videos, the way blacks are portrayed on TV (especially on the news), and the message that is generated about minorities as a whole. But most don't choose to follow in that image. That's like saying that every girl who sees a Britney Spears video (the ones before she got all fat, anyway) will go straight to the mall and buy skanky clothes. Sure, some of them will because they're impressionable and lack a sense of personal identity but by and large it's not true. The people who are effected by media are probably going to end up heading in the wrong direction anyway because they'll always need someone to tell them what to do and, in most cases, anyone who wants to tell you what to do and how to think isn't doing it in your best interest. That's why I think the black community, particularly younger articulate blacks, need to step up and make their voices heard. Let's face facts...some people are already too far gone to be swayed now by a different lifestyle. But if you can get to younger kids and have intelligent people watch out for them I think you've got a chance.

I agree its hard to study it. However I believe we are all effected by the media, the question is to what end? You cannot help but be effected, I think some more then others.

If you look at the number of teens have sex a young ages, increased teen pregnancies, increased violence amoungst youth and so on. It leads to a societal issue that is huge. This didnt have over night and I beleive this is largely to do by the media our youth are consuming.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by VR4_Craver

My "tone" was far from being racist. Yes I did point out facts. Unless what I witness myself is no longer considered fact. I guess I should be considered racist if I get pissed off about someone living off the money I bust my ass each day to have taken out in taxes, so they can have more kids and live a better life then I do. The argument here was that blacks and mexicans are being labeled as gangsters by the media, therefore live that kind of life style. Yet, 4 out of the 6 sources you mention have something to do with the media. Its like watching the weather on your 6 o'clock news and seeing rain the next 3 days then going onto the website and seeing sunshine and high of 90. Completely contradictory. Also, I am the fool for letting others tell me how I am gonna turn out? No. The fool is the one who listens to people who are paid to create controversy like that to get ratings. There is no coin flip needed robert I dont make nearly enough to give my son the kind of life I want him to live. So using your "coin" logic I should just give up and live off of welfare my whole life and never strive to achieve anything.

As far as the research goes:

http://www.in.gov/fssa/family/welfare/welfare.html
Look at that one for Indiana.
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k2/GovAid/GovAid.htm
this one to show that while on goverment assitance Substance abuse rose.
http://www.house.gov/pence/rsc/gov_waste.shtml
and on that one you can download .pdf's showing Medicaid and Food Stamp Waste/Abuse.

I will look into those interesting articles.

Considering the amount of anger you hold towards minorities that abuse the system in particular this couple that is on to their 4th child I think there is a huge issue. YOu cannot judge them one way and then judge your situation differently. They obviously cannot afford the 4th child, similarly you cannot afford your first child. Neither of you can say you deserve it more then the other. We're talking about an unborn child here that has no voice for itself.

No where in my comment did I mention giving up and going on welfare. I personally don't agree with welfare systems as they are currently structured in either country. However I do reconize the need for a safety net for the poorest people to be protected. There are options out there for you beyond medicare. Further more the child just didnt come from nowhere. My Father said to me when I was 14 "If you're ready to have sex, be ready to deal with the responsibilities of having a child. Not until you're comfortable with responsibilty should you risk it." Interesting persepective I thought. This is all hind sight now for your situation but maybe you should judge everyone as you judge yourself; on the same level.

I wish you all the best with this wonderful child you now have. All your child needs is alot of love and good parenting. Material things may improve his lifestyle but are not required for him, focus on the basics. Be wise and hopefully you will not instill in him the anger you have towards miniroties. Teach your child to see beyond color. Hopefully when he grows up he can take advantage of the wonderful country you live in and all that it has to offer.