How to save local governments big money

[Wren57]

Steve... the reason you reject religion seems a teenage-styled rebellious nature against your extremely religous parents. Makes sense from a psychological perspective. And you may say I don't know you, but I come from a bloodline of psychiatrists and have always been told I read people extremely well, so while I may be somewhat wrong, I'm not entirely stupid either.

Have a seat on the sofa and lets talk. Did you get along with your parents?

~~~

And as for nobody here knowing you, thats true, we don't know you as well as your friends or family... BUT it is easy to put together a picture of the type of person someone is based on the views they post... even the type of music you listen to. Sure to classify you as a person based on your views and likes/dislikes seems stereotyping, and it is, but when you stereotype based on 20+ criteria it becomes easier to pinpoint the type of person someone is...

[GT40FIED]

Actually my parents never pushed religion on me...or anyone else for that matter. They were (and are) devout, but always encouraged me to find my own way. I'm sure my mom would be happier if I went to church every sunday, but she knows that's not me so she doesn't push it. I did go to church until I was 13 or 14 (but even at the age of 7 or 8 I hated getting up early on my days off from school to go there). Some people just feel it. Others like me don't. I seriously don't get why some people can't understand that. I've looked at the pros and cons of both sides and decided where I stand. Not liking it is certainly anyone's right...but they also need to understand that no amount of standing on a soap box will convince me otherwise and it really makes them look like an ass.

[JDMFantasy2k]

wow interesting thread developing here. I'm not about to dive head first into this, but here's my 2 cents.

Not trying to come off as a religious buff, but steve have you ever truly, given god (or religion) a chance? Like truly, whole-heartedly try and accept it and see what happens? I mean if it truly isn't for you, then surely you've lost nothing. I feel it kinda goes along the lines of "don't knock it till you try it", because religion (and god for that matter) have changed the lives of millions of people for the better. You need to acknowledge god before you can talk t him.

Anyway, my second thought is, even if your "great plan" were to be instituted. What would it accomplish? It's not like every church in america is indulging on society's resources and weakening our economy/government.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by JDMFantasy2k

wow interesting thread developing here. I'm not about to dive head first into this, but here's my 2 cents.

Not trying to come off as a religious buff, but steve have you ever truly, given god (or religion) a chance? Like truly, whole-heartedly try and accept it and see what happens? I mean if it truly isn't for you, then surely you've lost nothing. I feel it kinda goes along the lines of "don't knock it till you try it", because religion (and god for that matter) have changed the lives of millions of people for the better. You need to acknowledge god before you can talk t him.

Anyway, my second thought is, even if your "great plan" were to be instituted. What would it accomplish? It's not like every church in america is indulging on society's resources and weakening our economy/government.

Yeah, actually...after my dad died. I was trying hard to search for answers. You know...the age old question of why good men die while bad ones are let alone. I'm sure you can identify better than most with this, Will, seeing as how you were and are in a very similar situation. It's not that I wasn't talking to god, but I got the distinct impression that no one was listening. Needless to say I still don't have my answers. That's not to say I don't believe in anything at all...I just don't claim to be wise enough to be able to quantify it and therefor I won't worship it. This, to me, is where every religion falls short. They claim to have the answers to unanswerable questions. If that helps you sleep at night, that's great. The problem is that a lot of people take those "answers" literally and force their thoughts on other people/government/family pets/school children. Just do a quick google search on Kansas' most hated native son, Fred Phelps, and see what I mean.

My "plan", as it were, is really more a matter of principle than anything I would ever actually intend to do. Put into context, if I don't work I don't expect a paycheck (some people do...fuck them). Churches take in what I'm sure is billions and billions of dollars every year and while they might give back, all I ever see are bigger and "better" churches being built while they get off scott free from the government. Hell...Bush even decided to give them MORE tax free money through "faith-based initiatives". It's just like the took churches in and left everyone else out in the cold. To me, that's just not right.

Like the gospel of St. Thomas says (though most hardcore christians denounce it as gnostic writing to their own gain), god isn't in a "mansion of wood and stone". "Lift a stone and you will find me. Split a piece of wood and I am there". I don't feel the need to congregate to assess my beliefs and I'm not sure anyone else should either. If churches didn't exist, would you stop believing? No one should reap the benefit without paying the man (unless, of course, it applies to everyone else, too).

[JDMFantasy2k]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

Yeah, actually...after my dad died. I was trying hard to search for answers. You know...the age old question of why good men die while bad ones are let alone. I'm sure you can identify better than most with this, Will, seeing as how you were and are in a very similar situation. It's not that I wasn't talking to god, but I got the distinct impression that no one was listening. Needless to say I still don't have my answers. That's not to say I don't believe in anything at all...I just don't claim to be wise enough to be able to quantify it and therefor I won't worship it. This, to me, is where every religion falls short. They claim to have the answers to unanswerable questions. If that helps you sleep at night, that's great. The problem is that a lot of people take those "answers" literally and force their thoughts on other people/government/family pets/school children. Just do a quick google search on Kansas' most hated native son, Fred Phelps, and see what I mean.

My "plan", as it were, is really more a matter of principle than anything I would ever actually intend to do. Put into context, if I don't work I don't expect a paycheck (some people do...fuck them). Churches take in what I'm sure is billions and billions of dollars every year and while they might give back, all I ever see are bigger and "better" churches being built while they get off scott free from the government. Hell...Bush even decided to give them MORE tax free money through "faith-based initiatives". It's just like the took churches in and left everyone else out in the cold. To me, that's just not right.

Like the gospel of St. Thomas says (though most hardcore christians denounce it as gnostic writing to their own gain), god isn't in a "mansion of wood and stone". "Lift a stone and you will find me. Split a piece of wood and I am there". I don't feel the need to congregate to assess my beliefs and I'm not sure anyone else should either. If churches didn't exist, would you stop believing? No one should reap the benefit without paying the man (unless, of course, it applies to everyone else, too).

Indeed we are in a similar situation, as my mother is hardcore with christan beliefs, and my father wasn't before he passed away. Consequently after his death I too turned my back to god, refusing to accept what had happened, and unable to find answers. However i could only deny him so long. Denying god caught up with me, (and i'm not one to push religion on anyone or whatnot) but i can tell you that i have talked to god and he is as real me or you. Now i may not have a solid answer as to why my father is no longer with me, but that's not god fault. People choose their own destinys, and if you choose to live a seccular life and do things that arent' pleasing to god, then why should he do anything for us? My case in point, i had been doing a lot of things i shouldn't have been, and as a result, i kept on getting sick. I usually only get a cold once a year, and it's usually not bad. However starting last fall i came down with this horrible sinus infection for over a week. Then it was followed by the most awful stomach flu i ever had. Now believe it or not, but my mom told me that i needed to get things right with god, and i didn't have anything to lose so i did. Now you won't believe this, but i opened up my bible (which i hadn't touched in months) and the page i opened to completley applied to me; there was no coincidence. Now i know you're going to say something like "oh you could interpret any message for your situation", however that book is thousands of pages long, and this message was exactly what i needed to hear. Now that is one of many things like that, that has happened to me and i'm not going to bother continuing on, but i haven't been sick since. Furthermore my mom hasn't been sick in at least 4 years....

Now imagine if all churches were shut down, destroyed, whatever. Would people still worship? Of course they would. Ever heard of the pilgrims? Oh yeah they basically started a whole new country so they would worship the way they wanted. Granted many people may not be as religious as back in those times, but i can guarantee you that people would form churches of their own, in their houses and whatnot. You can't stop people from meeting and sharing their faith. Why do you think churches are becomming bigger and better steve? It's not necesarily the ammount of cash they generate. They get bigger so they can accomodate more people. Case in point, the church i'm a member of started off in 1987 in a little building that probably held no more than 150 people. It was just a little room, with a tranceparancy projector and one piano. Since then our church has grown to over 300 members, and we now have a new building with hi-def projectors and a full 9 piece band. Now you'll probably bitch about how my church is greedy or evades taxes and whatnot. But my church has made sacrifices. Which we were saving money to build the building (which was not cheap) the church was actually giving money to a family in need. This family couldnt' afford to heat their house or put food on the table, and has 3 kids. The church supported them, until they could support themselves (i don't remember what happened, i think the husband got a good paying job or something). Even still, with bank loans and all our church could not afford all the expenses of the building, and some annonymous donors donated over $30,000 to our church. To me that kinda sounds like the mantra "what goes around comes around". So: church was saving money, people needed money, church sacrificed and gave money, church couldn't afford to finish building, someone donates a rediculous sum of money. If you ask me, i think it all depends on the church, some probably do lose sight of the goal and forget that the reason you go there is to worship god. My church can seem rather lavious with stuff, but that's just to help everyone's worship experience.

Moreover you can't just bash on churches because they're exempt from taxation. What about other NPO's that generate billions. Ever heard of the red cross? Helping people in disasters and whatnot. Actually, that reminds me that my church donated (i'm not exactly sure how much) a large sum of money to the red cross for the hurricane katrina effort and for some other disaster (forgot what it was). The point is, even if you were to tax these organizations, how could you recognize a benefit in the government that would outweigh the damage that taxation would do to these organizations.

In my opinion, if you want to generate some cashflow for this country. Then get congress to stop okaying president bush's ever wish in desire. It seems every day he's in that chamber asking for another few billion dollars, that's whats killing us.

well steve just some food for thought.