200 HP to the wheels

Hey everyone

I'm in the process of figuring out what kind of engine I want for my swap. I plan on performing the swap late this winter and early spring, so I want to get as much info as I can before I decide what motor to put in.
My goal for right now is to put down 200 Hp to the wheels. What would be the easiest/cheapest way to do this? Which engine setup would you recommend in order to reach this goal?

Thanks for your help, I look forward to your replies!

Jim Reed

H22a!!!! Nitrous that baby and it will bring u to high 12's

[2ndGenTeg]

H22 is an excellent choice. The engine will be expensive, but should give you around 170 hp to the wheels. A friend of mine out here has a JDM H22 in his stripped out EG, and he outruns Vettes. With I/H/E, cams, valvetrain, and tuning, you should be able to hit 200 hp without too much trouble. Disadvantages- D16Z axles will snap under the H22's torque load from a standstill. Also, in a car that small, the weight difference and slightly higher center of gravity will be much more apparent- expect some body roll and sluggish handling.

You could also go B18C. The engine will be cheaper, but you also get some other advantages: The swap will be easier and parts are easier to find. In order to get a B18C to 200 hp, you'll need the following: I/E, JDM style 4-1 header, Endyn 11.0:1 Pistons, Jun or Toda cams and valvetrain, A/F and VTEC management. I think you could probably hit 200 hp without having to raise your redline. For just a little more work, you could probably hit 220 with just a blockguard, Endyn Rods, and a raised redline (9500 or so).

Thanks for the replies guys.

I was thinking of starting with a B18C1 then going all motor like you said, cams, pistons, fuel management, etc.

I also got to thinking.....would it be cheaper to start with a B16A3 then go FI with a Greddy Turbo kit?

I know this is an All Motor forum but I wanted to know what you think about the turbo option.

Thanks!

[2ndGenTeg]

Dollar for dollar, you will always get more power from FI.

The advantage of all motor: respect.

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
Dollar for dollar, you will always get more power from FI.

The advantage of all motor: respect.

So by that your saying that guys with well designed FI setups deserve less respect?
If so, i disagree with you. If the the setup is done properly, with the right components to match the boost, its fine by me.

IMHO, the problem with strong FI systems is durability.
But if the engine in question is completely rebuilt to handle the punishment, then its all good!

Everyone talks about the undurability of turboed cars. But i think you guys are all wrong about this. I think it all depends on how you drive your car. If you have a tendency to redline at every chance you get then your motor is going to suffer with or without FI. Its not what setup up you have but how u drive your car. Say that my car is boosting 30lbs of boost. WHen i floor it then it will boost that much but for normal driving i can drive the car up to 80mph without boosting a 1 lb. Hence your car will be runnin like if its stock. Then if you need more juice then you floor it and that will be the closest you'll get to being a pilot. what im tryin to say is that if you want speed then you need more power. I believe that turbo is the easiest and the most cost effective way of making you car go fast. DONT BLAME THE TURBO OR ANY FI IF YOUR CAR BLOWS. BLAME YOURSELF. PEACE.

I tend to disagree. N/A b18c1/5 will not yield 200whp with those mods. .... Without rasing the redline??? ... are you nuts? Jun and Toda cams start to make power around 7800, there would be no reason for him not to raise the redline.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/andrij007/C...dyno_tuned.jpg
Here's what I came up with, and I have a lot more mods than what you've listed. My compression is at 11.7:1 (and you need that for any Jun or Toda cam to make power). The maps are conservative, but it gives you an idea, there is still some tuning left, however I don't think I will break 200whp barrier. Nevertheless 190whp is good enough for 14.0 in a coupe.

If you would like to run with Vette's only FI will do.
You can easily install a modest turbo kit under $5k. However, it will blow up eventually. To do it right you have to open the engine up and re-enforce everything.

IMO the best way to get 200whp is LS/Vtec or CRV-VTEC. This way you don't have to raise redline (because they block will not handle the RPM ... 8k is enough) and you can use cheap parts like b16a head and computer. Since you will have the head apart, you should Port and Polish the head at the least. Compression I would not go higher than 11.5:1 (this is pushing it), pump gas is not enough to keep it from detonating. Rollerwave pistons are not for everyday use, and will leak oil faster/more. CRV-VTEC is an excellent choice for making power. Again, having the crank offset 1mm larger than the b18c crank, this will not allow for high revs, but you can make plenty of power before 8k. Same idea and LS-VTEC except you have .15 more displacement.

Good luck,
~Andy

Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
H22 is an excellent choice. The engine will be expensive, but should give you around 170 hp to the wheels. A friend of mine out here has a JDM H22 in his stripped out EG, and he outruns Vettes. With I/H/E, cams, valvetrain, and tuning, you should be able to hit 200 hp without too much trouble. Disadvantages- D16Z axles will snap under the H22's torque load from a standstill. Also, in a car that small, the weight difference and slightly higher center of gravity will be much more apparent- expect some body roll and sluggish handling.

You could also go B18C. The engine will be cheaper, but you also get some other advantages: The swap will be easier and parts are easier to find. In order to get a B18C to 200 hp, you'll need the following: I/E, JDM style 4-1 header, Endyn 11.0:1 Pistons, Jun or Toda cams and valvetrain, A/F and VTEC management. I think you could probably hit 200 hp without having to raise your redline. For just a little more work, you could probably hit 220 with just a blockguard, Endyn Rods, and a raised redline (9500 or so).

Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
Dollar for dollar, you will always get more power from FI.

The advantage of all motor: respect.

Respect? You can have it! Ill take bragging rights, I'd rather spank cars, then just brag about my NA motor doing 200hp.

phat ride 2000 SI. yes yes a turbo car will always be easier to make power than a n/a car. but like the other guy said you get mad props with a n/a car cuz it take that much more effort. i mean i've seen b18c5 civic take out some turbo si. its that sleeper effect that gets you mad props. i mean when my civic with a hybrid takes out a gsr i get props. and its like when a n/a guy pops his hood what do u see a header and intake to the untrained eye no biggie but he just took that turbo civic. peace

Originally posted by sleeper4
phat ride 2000 SI. yes yes a turbo car will always be easier to make power than a n/a car. but like the other guy said you get mad props with a n/a car cuz it take that much more effort. i mean i've seen b18c5 civic take out some turbo si. its that sleeper effect that gets you mad props. i mean when my civic with a hybrid takes out a gsr i get props. and its like when a n/a guy pops his hood what do u see a header and intake to the untrained eye no biggie but he just took that turbo civic. peace

FI with Motorwork is still better.

Well, I've done had a turbo car, and i've got an all motor car right now. After a while, i got it through my thick head. Some of you may also have one! Low 13 secs from a turbo car: easy! Low 13 secs. from an all motor car: respect! I've been where all of you have and more probably. Maybe it's because i like to be the underdog. I'm pulling the same times with my hatchback b16a/b18c head than i did with my 93 boosted prelude si. You can't tell me that everytime you take off in your boosted (high compression, retarded to boost, perfect for all motor) Si, you don't feel like you might have broken something. I mean come on now. How much fun are you gonna get out of a greddy turbo anyway. Should've went FMAX and had a peace of mind. 8lbs of boost isn't fun to me.:: ! Spanking turbocharged cars is fun! Now if you do it right, then it's coo with me. But greddy ain't never been right with turbo... Sorree to rain on your parade, but shiet, that ain't tight at all!

Hey Jay D Em. Wanna RUN????hehehehe

Anytime man... hahaha... What? No welcoming for new members in the forum??? Ha ha

hahahah. WELCOME TO HONDAYSTYLE Jay D. EM...

Originally posted by MrCLoWnY
What im tryin to say is that if you want speed then you need more power. I believe that turbo is the easiest and the most cost effective way of making you car go fast. DONT BLAME THE TURBO OR ANY FI IF YOUR CAR BLOWS. BLAME YOURSELF. PEACE.

True That!

Originally posted by JaY D. Em
Well, I've done had a turbo car, and i've got an all motor car right now. After a while, i got it through my thick head. Some of you may also have one! Low 13 secs from a turbo car: easy! Low 13 secs. from an all motor car: respect! I've been where all of you have and more probably. Maybe it's because i like to be the underdog. I'm pulling the same times with my hatchback b16a/b18c head than i did with my 93 boosted prelude si. You can't tell me that everytime you take off in your boosted (high compression, retarded to boost, perfect for all motor) Si, you don't feel like you might have broken something. I mean come on now. How much fun are you gonna get out of a greddy turbo anyway. Should've went FMAX and had a peace of mind. 8lbs of boost isn't fun to me.:: ! Spanking turbocharged cars is fun! Now if you do it right, then it's coo with me. But greddy ain't never been right with turbo... Sorree to rain on your parade, but shiet, that ain't tight at all!

Its cool if you want to go all motor.

Just dont think people like me and my fellow turbo loving clowns will stop at just a turbo.

Trust me there will be equal amounts and most likely more money spent on motor work.

The Greddy kit can and will be modified. Its a freaking TD5 thats nothing to sneeze at bro.

Like I said, you can keep your respect, Ill take the satisfaction of spanking an all swapped out motor hatchback.

Forced Induction + Heavily built motor = I win

Well this is dumb, there will be no way we'll ever be able to tell who would win between me and you, so i'ma stop all argument here. Even though I think I would win, unless you run 13's on street tires? But, either way, you do what makes you happy and i'll do what makes me happy. Even though i've already been turbo, i still like the fact that every time i drive i can rag my shiet out problem free... (knock on would that is) Like i said, i used to be just like you, till i realized these foolz aint puttin much money into their cars and still runnin' closed to what i was running. A hatchback with a $2800 b16 and about $2000 dollars worth of mods is equal to my 93 prelude with a $4200 FMAX kit plus installation plus boost controller plus v-afc plus tuning. All equals a 13 second car on streets... Same driver! I dunno man, you add it up...

civic SI with Greddy Turbo Kit in stock form will run low 13's.

True True, I give you props, I know it takes a lot of sweat and blood to put in all that motor work. All motor looks sweet under the hood. I give you all motor fellas mad props I'm not hating!

PEACE!

hehe, want 200hp at the wheels all motor?? go 420a, now that be a cool hybrid

My buddy has $2gs in mods into his engine, and its now a 4 door neon member of the 12 sec club (12.90's, but 12s are 12s)

puts down ~197 whp

Scott Muellers neon is making over 250 whp, and was running 11.80's in street trim, before he converted to full drag (now hes running deep deep 11's - 11.00's and 11.10's)

Yes, and no...

All honda motors have an open deck. This means that the top of the cylinders are not closed, thus can flex.

When you run an all motor application, air is utilized in a VACUM capacity... the engine can only take in so much air as cams (duration) will allow. This is what they are designed for, and how they can run obscene redlines with incredible reliability.

When you are to introduce forced induction into a open deck motor, it is concieveable that the greatly increased pressures will cause the cylinders to 'flex'. This is due to the fact that the motor was not designed to operate like this.

Consider the following: My ITR spins up to 9500rpm. Every component in the engine was taken apart, balanced and reassembled with new rings, seals etc. The components were balanced to 1/100th of a gram.

In order for this motor to retain true reliablity, things such as my cylinders cannot flex as much as a 1000th of an inch. If this is to occur, EVERY component (piston, rod, crank) is now being subjected to much greater stresses, amplified by the rotational masses of everything going round.

If I were to built a RELIABLE, high boost application, a great deal of attention will have to be paid to re-enforcing block, mains, cylinder head, and all rotating components.

In absolute terms, because Honda has spent millions upon millions of dollars developing their ALL MOTOR engines, it will be easier (and comparatively cheaper) to build a high strung all motor application. The B18C1 and C5 have lighter weight components in them already; not something that was designed for a boosted application.

My moto is, if someone else has proven that something works exceptionally well, why screw with it?

I costed doing a PROPER FI setup and it was considerably more than building the motor I have now. Incidently, my all motor setup puts down 190whp and has not had the cams dialed in properly. 200whp is right around the corner.

There is no question that forced induction will produce more power. The question is can it do so reliably.

The answer is yes, if you are going to do the job properly, research what it is you are trying to achieve, and move there in a sane well thought out fashion.

A side note: creating enourmas power does not make you faster; skill and a well sorted chasis does. I have gone up against people in much more powerful cars than me and still walked away from them.

Just my opinion...