Ford Vtec baby!

[GT40FIED]

So I was reading an article on the '05 Mustangs (you know...one of those "first drive/test" articles). Apparently, Ford will now enter the domain of nearly every other car company and offer a variable electronically controlled valvetrain on the'05 models. This is a fairly new engine...a 4.6L with 3 valves per cylinder (yes...that's right. 1 intake 2 exhaust.). Such a pairing will result in 300hp for the GTs with significant suspension upgrades like a torque arm and a panhard bar. That being said, the Cobra will NOT be produced for '05 but it will come back for '06 (presumably) and i'm guessing it'll have around 450-500hp. I'd like to see an old school Ferarri Vtec. Ferarri first came out withthis system that had a camshaft, if viewed lengthwise, had slanted almost triangular lobes. At higher rpm the cam would actually move forward and the higher end of the lobe would increase lift. I don't think this ever saw production but it's still a sweet idea. Bow down to Italian engineering (for cars at least).

[MAXed Out]

Interesting

[ebpda9]

yeah, i think ferrary still uses the infinite valve timing thing. the lobes are a 3d cut. i was thininking about that, but then i read it in howstuffworks. i think it's pretty sweet

[pdiggitydogg]

Well there goes all the little ricer's excuses:
"Mustangs suck...I have "vtech""

[AkimboStylee]

its vtec, not V-tech, VTEC, v-tec, just to make sure you all no tthat, jfwy!!!?!?!

[IALuder]

^nice.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by hondaman-iac
yeah, i think ferrary still uses the infinite valve timing thing. the lobes are a 3d cut. i was thininking about that, but then i read it in howstuffworks. i think it's pretty sweet

Stefan...you win the award for being the only person I ever mentioned that to who had a clue what I was talking about.

[Kyle]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Stefan...you win the award for being the only person I ever mentioned that to who had a clue what I was talking about.

so basicly you made this post just to show you have superior knowledge when it comes to italian cars?...

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by Kyle
so basicly you made this post just to show you have superior knowledge when it comes to italian cars?...

how about my idea.. here it is:

Computer camshaft. In a nutshell, them camshaft opens and closes valves and determines how long they are open. Why couldn't something be developed that allows a computer to open and close the valves, and do away with the camshaft? This way you would have less moving parts, and be able to tue your car to what you want. For example, as a daily driver I would "tune" my computer cam for about .500" lift and about 210@50 duration, when when I get crazy on the weekend, I could retune it for like 500lift and 250/260@ 50 duration. Why not?

[Kyle]

Originally posted by V8killimports
how about my idea.. here it is:

Computer camshaft. In a nutshell, them camshaft opens and closes valves and determines how long they are open. Why couldn't something be developed that allows a computer to open and close the valves, and do away with the camshaft? This way you would have less moving parts, and be able to tue your car to what you want. For example, as a daily driver I would "tune" my computer cam for about .500" lift and about 210@50 duration, when when I get crazy on the weekend, I could retune it for like 500lift and 250/260@ 50 duration. Why not?

does sound like a good idea...but it seems that it might fuck up to easy...a surge in power...or just a short could fuck things up.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
I don't think this ever saw production but it's still a sweet idea. Bow down to Italian engineering (for cars at least).

i thought it was in the new 360s? almost egg shaped cam lobes... so it could achieve peak power for that specific rpm

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by Kyle
so basicly you made this post just to show you have superior knowledge when it comes to italian cars?...

Ummm.....no. It's just that if you ever mention that people usually just look at you like a dog that's just been shown a card trick. The thread really has little to do with it.

V8 - I don't think that would be altogether impossible...but with a 250 duration @ .050" your power brakes would be shit. I seem to remember a while back hearing something about using electromagnets in valvetrains. If this were the case you could determine the strength and duration of the charge that opened/closed everything thus changing the lift and duration.

[IALuder]

imo i think any ford made after 89 sucks. except the trucks they didnt suck till 98.

my dads 2002 explore with 35K on it needed a motor swap. why becuase the timing chains went bad. then the cat went bad. the whole damn thing need replaced or rebuilt. thank god for ford 40K mile warrenty. dumb fucks.

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by V8killimports
how about my idea.. here it is:

Computer camshaft. In a nutshell, them camshaft opens and closes valves and determines how long they are open. Why couldn't something be developed that allows a computer to open and close the valves, and do away with the camshaft? This way you would have less moving parts, and be able to tue your car to what you want. For example, as a daily driver I would "tune" my computer cam for about .500" lift and about 210@50 duration, when when I get crazy on the weekend, I could retune it for like 500lift and 250/260@ 50 duration. Why not?

i think the next 3 series from bmw will have that. the only problem is that the valves will slap like crazy because they will open/close really fast, unlike the good ol' camshafts that allow for them to close slower. well it's all new technology and it will be perfected in couple of years

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by hondaman-iac
i think the next 3 series from bmw will have that. the only problem is that the valves will slap like crazy because they will open/close really fast, unlike the good ol' camshafts that allow for them to close slower. well it's all new technology and it will be perfected in couple of years

No it's my idea.

Patent pending.

I would love a tuneable camshaft. Better yet a camshaft that's not a camshaft with no moving parts.. no lobes to wear down. Best thing since roller cams.

And since when do you need a motor swap for changing a timing chain??

[nonovurbizniz]

You could use an abs style hydrolic system to trigger the cam event...

I'm sure it's being worked on in multiple manufacturers facilities...

You could also use high powered selonoids to push the valve open instead of the cam...

The only thing i see becoming a problem is the increased effort needed to both open and close the valves at higher rpm/load... but I'm sure that's more than attainable...

The main reason I think there hasn't been too much research in that direction is the inherent slope of power... IE going from VERY high lift to very low lift or vice versa isn't going to yield as much of a performance increase as a gradual steady increase in lift which is perfectly attainable with current cammed engines...

The thing I'm most impressed by automotively that I've read about is the constantly variable transmission that I believe audi is working on... that is a SICK idea.. and when you look at it it's a pretty simple devise too... can't believe no one came up with it till them.

[ebpda9]

well if you look at the CVT trannies they don't handle all that much torque. i think the best belt so far can handle 237ft-lbs of torque. indeed the CVT's are lighter and have less movable parts to break, but still i don't see them in the racing apps in the near future.

Well the 2 stag guys care to explain me the 260 degrees of durstion at .5 or whatever ? i never seem to get that.

[GT40FIED]

Ok...on a cam you can measure duration really anywhere (i.e. how long the valves are open in relation to crankshaft rotation) but most are done as advertised duration or as duration @ .050" of lift. Some manufacturers in the '60s would use weird lift points to make their cams seem bigger or more streetable, but advertised and .050" are the widely accepted ones now. So, if you measure 260 degrees of advertised duration, the cam will keep the valve open for 260 degrees on each stroke (intake and exhaust) assuming it's a single pattern cam. I've read how they measure duration @ .050" and I think it's pretty similar, but I can't remember at the moment. Either way, you can figure out the streetability or power potential of a cam and choose the best cam for your engine by looking at duration and lobe seperation angle. Big duration and lower LSA = big high rpm power but shit for vacuum (brakes) and horrible low end. Lower duration and higher LSA = more streetable and better low end and vacuum but it'll lower your powerband.

[ebpda9]

thanks, that makes sense. but what is the lsa ? lobe separation angle ?

[GT40FIED]

Yes.

[ebpda9]

how can you calculate the engine output ?

[GT40FIED]

There are programs for that. I'm sure you'd have to take into account intake port size, approximate CFM, velocity, volumetric efficiency, fuel intake, runner size and cross section, valve size, rocker arm ratio, compression, timing specs, desired powerband, redline, and displacement among other things. Then factor in the effect that a given cam (whether it's hydraulic, hyd. roller, or solid roller can make a difference too) will have on these issues. For instance, a cam with a bigger lift and more duartion without a change in intake runner size and cross section (or CFM) won't give you much of a boost. A dual pattern cam (usually with more duration on the exhaust side) will evacuate the cylinder better and increase the velocity of incoming air since, while the exhaust valve stays open for a short period of time while the intake valve is opening, it will create a pressure difference which sucks air in quicker. Change the brake specific fuel consumption or swap the intake and you've got a different set of numbers. It's fairly easy to give a generalization for a given engine and the desired results, but it's a lot harder to predict actual power numbers without a specific formula or program to do it for you.

[V8killimports]

Basically though.. you try to match certain parts to the cam.. they advertise these parts at power bands, as well as the cam. So if I have 411 gears and a six speed with a 2.97 1st gear ratio I don't care about low end.. which is why my cam has a duration at about 250@.50. If I had salt flat gears, and an autotranny without the proper stall the car would be a dog at lower rpms until it hit it's power band. But anyways.. the biggest thing I can see that you need to match up to your cam is the intake manifold, and the heads. It's actually a super simple design.. And for power brakes I have a power brakes booster.. brakes work awesome..

[GT40FIED]

^^This is also true. A lot of companies make "dyno proven combos". I'm not sure I like the idea...most of them don't add the kind of power you'd really want from the parts they offer. Take Holley for example and their SysteMax kits. Heads, intake, and a cam with all the associated hook-up bits and pieces. Now on a Ford 5.0L they advertise 350hp. Now Holley's intake are great, so I could buy one of those, some Canfield of AFR or even Brodix heads, and a strong cam and probably come out closer to 400hp or more. Those packages are generally designed for people who don't want to put a ton of thought into their combos. Not that there's anything wrong with them...they make decent power and work well in a specific powerband, but you can get better results choosing stuff yourself if you have a good idea of what you're doing. I wouldn't go anywhere without a custom ground cam.

[ebpda9]

yeah because i found someone that will regrind a cam for me to 260 duration. i forgot all theother specs but i think that the 260 is not at .050" lift. i hard peaople liking that for my type of engine. it's only $85 to have it done and it's like a stage 1 cam, and if i don't like it, then i'll always have another cam sitting in my room. i think the gains from it were like 20hp. what do u think ?

[GT40FIED]

Usually regrinds are a bad idea. They'll work ok if they're ground to change the specs VERY little. Really the only time I'd ever consider having a cam reground was if I had an antique and parts were hard to come by or if I was in a racing class that restricted you to the factory cam. I don't know a ton about Hondas...but I doubt a simple regrind would dramatically change your cam profile. At least not enough to give you 20hp.

[ebpda9]

well looking for a f22a1 cam is like looking for a 1920 ford cam. no one makes them,. the only thing i found so far was crower and delta

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by hondaman-iac
well looking for a f22a1 cam is like looking for a 1920 ford cam. no one makes them,. the only thing i found so far was crower and delta

Actually, Model A engine parts are easy to come by. My dad was building a Model A engine for a plane he was building. Besides, Crower makes some decent stuff. Maybe other cams will swap into a f22a1...I know a 351W Ford cam will swap right into a 5.0L block. Regrinds...

[ebpda9]

i forgot to mention that crower and delta were making regrinds only

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by hondaman-iac
i forgot to mention that crower and delta were making regrinds only

If they stand behind their cam go for it.. I have had a motor spit out 4 cams before finally lasting the break in process. If that is REALLY all there is out there, you don't have a choice. I dunno anything about honda cams, but my entire motor, and most others are generally built around the cam.

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
The thing I'm most impressed by automotively that I've read about is the constantly variable transmission that I believe audi is working on... that is a SICK idea.. and when you look at it it's a pretty simple devise too... can't believe no one came up with it till them.

I'm not sure exactly what Audi is doing, but CVT's aren't new. Sheot I even had the idea back in highschool only to read 2 years later that Honda was going to take it to production.

b