Family values?

[GT40FIED]

Does anyone know exactly what these are? I mean, besides some snide comment coming from every politician running for office who is always "for" them. Does having a wife (or husband) and a couple of fuck trophies make your crazy ideas any more important than the crazy ideas of an unmarried person? In my mind...no. Why? Well...for one, you're theoretically the same person you were when you got married and just because someone who is most likely like-minded is backing you up doesn't mean you're right. Secondly...you've spawned. That's foolish enough right there. Well...in my mind anyway. Like we need more people on this planet. So anyway...can we here at HST form a concensus on what exactly "family values" are? Is it even possible? Is it all a bunch of bullshit created to win elections? You be the judge. Let's hear it.

[CD5Passion]

i found this article very interesting
"When President Bush speaks of the lack of family values he, of course, is referring to broken marriages, single mothers, and inner-city kids who join gangs and sell dope. But are these the only villains -- or the most important ones -- responsible for the shredded social fabric? What about well-to-do white boys who trade on family connections, welsh on loans, run with con men, and leave financial ruin in their wake as they line their own pockets? "

only goes to show that when the talk of family values arises ones view can be very biased.

[Wren57]

What it would seem to mean would be the idea of a "model american family"; you know, the typical two working heterosexual adults with 2-3 kids, a 3000sq ft house and a white picket fence. That is the somewhat down-to-the-bone interpretation. The somewhat more obvious interpretation is that "family values" is a term for a married couple with goals/ambition/ability/etc... the typical "american dreamer". Either way, I would agree that the "family values" BS is just an attempt at getting elected; who the hell is AGAINST family values? It is all propganda, you just gotta read through it and see to what part of your emotion/logic the propoganda is playing to and determine its message that way.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by highlander
What it would seem to mean would be the idea of a "model american family"; you know, the typical two working heterosexual adults with 2-3 kids, a 3000sq ft house and a white picket fence. That is the somewhat down-to-the-bone interpretation. The somewhat more obvious interpretation is that "family values" is a term for a married couple with goals/ambition/ability/etc... the typical "american dreamer". Either way, I would agree that the "family values" BS is just an attempt at getting elected; who the hell is AGAINST family values? It is all propganda, you just gotta read through it and see to what part of your emotion/logic the propoganda is playing to and determine its message that way.

A legitimate explanation...but who gets to decide what the "model Amerikan family" is? As far as I'm concerned any two people committed to each other and in love are a family. Fuck what the government tries to say...you can't legislate morality. The old idea of the nuclear family is completely gone. And these values can't apply to marriage because if they were so important people wouldn't get divorced left and right. Sanctity of marriage, indeed. So if no one can clearly define a concrete meaning, why is it so widely used...usually by people who piss me off? I swear, I WILL find a satisfactory explanation even if I have to write my congressman (who I'm sure is also "for family values"). I will get an answer.

[CD5Passion]

this forces me to bring up another question. what's with this divorce? how come it has become such a widely acceptable escape. what ever happened to working through the problems..what ever happened to "for better or for worse till death do us part". Now it's more like "i will cherish you until you piss me off or i just get bored with you".
the numbers are a few years old but it gets the idea across
"The total numbers of U.S. divorces (excluding the non-counting states) reported finalized annually are 957,200 in 2000, 944,317 in 1999, and 947,384 in 1998.
The total numbers of U.S. marriages (including those states) reported celebrated annually are 2,355,005 in 2000, 2,366,623 in 1999, and 2,267,854 in 1998. (Americans for Divorce Reform)"

I've heard it numerous times from people around me "it's not like marriage is permanent, if I get sick of her I'll just get divorced"...to me there is something terribly wrong with this state of mind...is it just me?

[MissJDM]

It's not just you. I don't think I can even put into words how much it disgusts me. I may just stay away from this thread.

[Wren57]

I'll tell you the problem right now with divorce, and it is gonna sound obvious; people getting married before they are mature enough to make the decision and handle it. I know many couples get married out of love, and sometimes it works, but sometimes they get married and realize they love each other but aren't compatible in other ways and just won't put in the effort to compromise. Another reason is the end-a-fight-marriage. The destructive relationship where a marriage is rushed on the rebound... guy f*cks up, proposes to prove "love", and there you have it; another marriage doomed to fail. Another reason is how fast-paced today's world is. The individual faces far more frequent problems today than 300 years ago, thus the couple faces problems more frequently. Basically, you gotta know you love the other person and can LIVE with them before you consider it, and most people don't know that, so they F it up.

[Wren57]

I did a google for "family values", and the most telling part of anything I got back was this; everywhere refers to them as "traditional family values", tradition being the key. The "family values" propoganda is being used to promote tradition; aka, conservatism, aka, the Republicans. Brilliant strategic move (although somewhat sick) by the GOP to use the individual's love for country/family to push their own agendas into more people's now-open minds...

[GT40FIED]

I think a big part of this problem is that there is no such thing anymore as "traditional values". While love of country and family are one thing, it's entirely another when it comes to having a family. I can love my country all I want (although at this moment I all but despise it), but that doesn't mean I simultaneously involve my family with that. I mean...if a gay couple were to marry and adopt a child, would they be any less "traditional" than a heterosexual couple who loved each other less? I think this will become a big problem for us. I know many homosexual people who have been with their partners decades longer than most hetero couples could ever hope to be together yet they are denied the same privilages. The problem is that people vote on their beliefs and not by way of logic. But maybe that's another topic altogether.

As for marriage...it's now a joke in this country. Most of our generation consider your first marriage a "starter marriage". I swear I didn't make that up...it's what most people consider their "first" marriage. My brother, who's a year and a half older than me, got married about 2 years ago. He dated the girl for around 2 1/2 years. She left him after 9 months with a guy she'd obviously been fucking around with during their marriage (maybe longer). Oh...and my brother was marriage number 2 for her. This is why there's no tradition anymore. "Til death do us part" has turned into "for the next 6-10 years", if you're lucky. With marriage a sham and tradition out the window, how can we continue our current way of life without some sort of change? The president has proposed a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and a grant of $1 billion to promote the "sanctity" of marriage. Am I the only one who sees a conflict here? Gay marriage can still be a sanctity...yet you'd rather ban it and promote a hetero marriage that will likely fail within it's fledgling years. It's muh more likely that people vote on their fears rather than their consciousness. I'm not sure why gay marriage would scare some people, but apparently it does. "God" forbid anyone else be happy.

[mavaaoife]

This divorce shit is a bunch of bullshit.. I have always said once I get married.. that is it.. and divorce to me isnt an option... my parents got divorced when I was 15 months old...so I grew up in a single-mother household... now why did my parents get divorced? Because my dad cheated on my mom with her best friend... and that was going on for 7 of the 15 years my parents were divorced. My mom knew it for 3... but was told by her parents divorce wasnt an option until she decided enough was enough. My dad got remarried and has been married to this woman for almost 11 years.. yet about 2 years ago he also almost got divorced to her cause he was "bored".

My current boyfriend and I are going to be moving in to an apartment together in April. He is moving down from boston and we decided before we made any engagement commitments we were going to live together and see if we could even make it. I was looking at the statistics and found that couple who live together first have a 75% more of divorce rate.. yet the divorce rate in the US is already about 50%...

[CD5Passion]

the gay marriage ban has pissed me off since the day the idea arose. why is it so wrong? cause the bible says so? oh but i thought "god" was all forgiving. IMO gay couples whether male or female could be better parents than most of the heterosexual marriages that are existent in this century. there's no way they can say that gay couples are less able to raise a healthy child
in terms as to what Ren said..I can't even mention how many people I know that have single parents. again the argument that very few people actually know what love is. I can honestly say that 75% marriages are based on lust these days rather than love.

[Racing Rice]

I've always told my wife, both before and after we got married... "In order for us to get a divorce one of us has to die.. " I stand by that statement 100%. I've seen way to many families break up over stupid stuff that could be worked out with better communication and a good amount of trust.

Its sad that people are always looking for the easy way out.

[MissJDM]

You know what's sad, I think this forum is the only place I've been to who have agreed beliefs in regards to gay marriage. My entire high school thought I was a fuckin Nazi when we had this conversation in debate class.

On a side note, during my break at work today, I talked to a personal banker who is 24 years old.
Me: So, have you and Shannon talked about marriage?
Him: Yeah, but nothing too complicated yet.
Me: Well, do you SEE yourself being happily married?
Him: Yeah, but if not, oh well, it's life you know?
Me: Divorce you mean? is life?
Him: [shrugs] yeah i mean, it's one in a million in the sea.


That conversation was sad. Just thought I'd share. Ironic how it happened today too.

[mavaaoife]

when it comes to gay marraige I am in total support of it.. My 32 y/o brother is gay and why shouldnt he be as happy as anyone else? If his perception of love is with another man.. who the fuck am I to tell him he shouldnt beable to be married. I could easily say gay couples stay together 60% more than heterosexual couples because their relationships are usually based on love before lust.

[MissJDM]

No one ever brings this up..but, a lot of people are against the gay couple marriages because it's against the bible.

Well, how come transexuals don't compare? Isn't that in the same seed?

[CD5Passion]

yes because it is in the bible and the reason why quite a few people dont support gay marriages, strictly because the bible speaks against it....I've last faith in the bible a long time ago..and it's things like these that don't bring back any love for it.

[GT40FIED]

Well...the bible doesn't talk about gay marriage specifically, but it touches on homosexuality in generally. Most people will site the book of Leviticus (specifically Leviticus 18:22), but thinking that "god" doesn't want people to be happy regardless of sexual persuasion is a bit counterintuitive to the whole nature of the bible. What most people fail to realize is that all biblical and religious texts were not written by the deity they are about. They were all written by man...the bible specifically as long as 400-500 years after Jesus' death. Word of mouth stories can change a lot in 500 years. These are probably the same people that made Jesus into a white man even though he was clearly an Arab. My big problem with this whole hoopla, especially a constitutional amendment, is that it flies right in the face of the Bill Of Rights. Remember...everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It's not "happiness so long as everyone is comfortable with it". If you really wanted to ban gay marriage, you should've stuck with the original John Locke wording (that's right...jefferson pretty much stole that line from John Locke) "life, liberty, and the pursuit of property". Funny thing is that this is a religious/morality issue and people want laws against it. Religion has no place in politics...just like facts have no place in organized religion. It's also incredible immoral to attempt to legislate morality. So yeah...I don't even see how this can even be an issue.

And Lyna...it is actually illegal for transexuals to marry people of their original sex. While you can legally change your name, you can't legally change your sex. A...uhhhh....person (man who became a woman) was actually arrested in Kansas City after marrying a guy who knew his whole history because they said he filed a false legal document (marriage liscence claiming he was a female). Way to go Amerika...leading the world in legislating bigotry and intolerance since 1776.

[MissJDM]

Steve, I never even thought about that, so thanks for the facts. However, I was targeting the fact that people are so against homosexuality for other reasons, but a big one being organic reproduction. In my mind, I just think it's a double standard that gay marriage has been such an issue when there are newly "made" transexuals weekly. People always say God made you, don't change yourself. Along the lines of God made men for women, don't change the rule. Get what I mean?

Man, the world is so fucked it.