Are pulley's really worth it?

[Grip72]

Ok, i now know what pulleys are and what they do. But are they really worth it? I'd like to hear from the people that have them, that have used them or have some experiece with them..thanks

[nonovurbizniz]

imo they're silly...

There are two types... crank pulleys that underdrive everything... and accesorry pullies that underdrive that component...

here's why I think each are silly.

Acc. Pullyes.
They underdrive each individual component...

Power Steering... the only real time it does ANYTHING is when you are idleing.. or at VERY low rpms... other than that the pulley is hardly ever draining power... SO when you underdrive it it takes higher rpms to achieve the same power... basically taking away the effectiveness of the powersteering... I wouldn't be suprised if a looped system with a breather (IE.. entirely remove the power steering pump pully belt and lines) would turn easier...
However I've never had them so... I could be wrong...

Alternator... If you have any dimming of the lights at a stop at night it's gunna get worse... if you have a big stereo or other elec. aftermarket stuff it's not going to run them as effectively...

Also underdriving electic motors (basically what an alternator is) can be VERY bad for them and quickly deteriorate the lifespan of it.

A/C... well again underdriving a compressor is going to effect both it's life and effectivenes...

Crank Pulleys...

Most are not properly balanced (causes bearing fatigue/failure at high rpms). they also have no dampening which is ok on some models (internally balanced/dampened blocks)... but definately not ideal...

And again these underdrive all the accessories... which isn't ideal...

Automotive engineers usually design everything to be operating in a specific range...

For example... you can add pressure to the fuel rail/system and make the injectors flow moderately more but it wears them out faster than normal (not to say they won't last a long time still) and they do have a limit (not too far above the stock flow)... if you drop pressure to them they will flow less but again there is a limit... without enough pressure they will NOT perform properly at all without enough pressure...

With all this said... I'm sure the aem ones aren't going to kill your car or accessories but they are VERY expensive for very little gain...

Like said in the other thread... they are really a final touch... when you're trying to free up ANY final few hp...

They increase power by freeing up otherwise drained power... the more power the engine has the more power will be freed by lightening the spinning load...

For another example "race only" cars will generally resort to running electic water pumps to be running as few accesories off the crank... While it will benifit a street drivin car it's not by anymeans the best way to spend your money. (unless you have already bought all the better things).

[Wren57]

underdrive pulleys are stupid IMHO. you gain a few HP, but think about what you lose. Is the tradeoff really worth it to you? it isn't to me, as I would rather have a car that is fully functional and enjoyable to drive rather than one with 3hp more... I would like it if a company made stock-size pulleys, but out of very lightweight/strong material, that would be nice... there is a much better way to spend money than pulleys...

I'd be curious to see the diameter measurements for both stock and AEM pulleys to see how much of a difference there really is. Most of the gain is probably in reducing the mass of the pulleys.

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
Alternator... If you have any dimming of the lights at a stop at night it's gunna get worse... if you have a big stereo or other elec. aftermarket stuff it's not going to run them as effectively...

Caps will help this out.

My stock Accord has dimming when I press the brakes. Poor Hondas have never been known for good alternators.

Also underdriving electic motors (basically what an alternator is) can be VERY bad for them and quickly deteriorate the lifespan of it.

How so? The alternator operates off the crank, wich can turn anywhere between around 750 to 6250 rpm....that's a pretty big range. And we're talking of making it probably, say, 5-10% slower. However my car doesn't even always idle at 750, sometimes a little lower, like 5-10% lower......

The only thing you're doing is giving yourself less juice on the output, putting a higher strain on the battery.....causing the charging system to kick in more, but isn't the alternator always pumping juice when the car's running?

A/C... well again underdriving a compressor is going to effect both it's life and effectivenes...

Again, it spins at varying speeds.....the rate at which you change the speeds it runs is more of a problem than the actual speed, unless you're talking high speeds. How is running it a little slower bad for it? Other than its effectiveness, I mean.

Crank Pulleys...

Most are not properly balanced (causes bearing fatigue/failure at high rpms). they also have no dampening which is ok on some models (internally balanced/dampened blocks)... but definately not ideal...

The crank pulleys provide the biggest gain of anything (which the AEM kit doesn't replace), but usually require removal of the harmonic balancer.....I think saying definitely not ideal is an understatement, it's a good way to cause lots of problems for the poor gerbils under the hood. Unorthodox Racing makes one, but I wouldn't use it. The biggest benefit to theirs is also lighter weight, the crank pulley is heavy....

For the contradictory statements above, sorry I don't mean to argue with you I'm just curious why you say them....because I don't see why underdriving the alternator or A/C is bad for them.

b

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally posted by spoogenet
I'd be curious to see the diameter measurements for both stock and AEM pulleys to see how much of a difference there really is. Most of the gain is probably in reducing the mass of the pulleys.



Caps will help this out.

My stock Accord has dimming when I press the brakes. Poor Hondas have never been known for good alternators.

By caps do you mean capacitors?... I wouldn't think that that's a very appropriate use for them as they discharge a LARGE amount of voltage all at once instead of providing what's needed when.... A REAL voltage regulator would be way more benificial.. however simply wiring your headlights and/or other "important" electronics to a relay with direct battery power would solve it all together for next to nothing.

How so? The alternator operates off the crank, wich can turn anywhere between around 750 to 6250 rpm....that's a pretty big range. And we're talking of making it probably, say, 5-10% slower. However my car doesn't even always idle at 750, sometimes a little lower, like 5-10% lower......

the alternator only starts to put out adiquit (sp) voltage at 3-4k rpm... So... when it's underdriven the idle output (as you stated already VERY close to useless) will be even worse... and it will take longer for the alternator to reach adiquite output... the only benifit would be that as the alt. on high reving cars like our own are generally beat up by being OVER driven at high rpm... however you still won't be adiquitely charging your system during normal driving... which may not be the biggest deal but I'd be pretty pissed if I got my car jumped and drove 30min home only to have it die again because I didn't sustain 5k+ the whole way home...

Also the alt. does underspin (very bad for elec. motors) at idle... it's just assumed that the majority of the time won't be spent there... with it underdriven you risk underspinning it at highway cruising rpm. which WILL cause pre-mature wear.

The only thing you're doing is giving yourself less juice on the output, putting a higher strain on the battery.....causing the charging system to kick in more, but isn't the alternator always pumping juice when the car's running?

No... as stated above the alt. doesn't put out decent voltage till around 3-4k.

Again, it spins at varying speeds.....the rate at which you change the speeds it runs is more of a problem than the actual speed, unless you're talking high speeds. How is running it a little slower bad for it? Other than its effectiveness, I mean.

The ac compressor is just that a compressor... the slower it spins when it's clutch is engaged the more likely it is for the pressure built not to be enough to continue through the workings of the compressor... you can get reversion which is not good for seals etc... I don't know how bad or how much damage it would cause but I'm sure it's negligable for the a/c.

The crank pulleys provide the biggest gain of anything (which the AEM kit doesn't replace), but usually require removal of the harmonic balancer.....I think saying definitely not ideal is an understatement, it's a good way to cause lots of problems for the poor gerbils under the hood. Unorthodox Racing makes one, but I wouldn't use it. The biggest benefit to theirs is also lighter weight, the crank pulley is heavy....

[b]civics don't have a harmonic balancer... are you sure you need to "remove" the harmonic balancer... generally they're internal and spun off the crank gear not the crank pulley. The civics have a dampened balanced crank pulley... it's weight is engineered and the dampener attempts to absorb as much excess vibration as possible... w/o it there is a rick (but by no means guarantee) of damage... not worth it again imo.

For the contradictory statements above, sorry I don't mean to argue with you I'm just curious why you say them....because I don't see why underdriving the alternator or A/C is bad for them.

No problem... I should make it clear... they're by NO means (with exception of the crank pulley) super dangerous or anything... you just risk prematurely wearing parts.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Its been talked about a lot on this board already, but yes, I think they are worth it if you've already done I/H/E. They are a cheap, secondary mod.

[pdiggitydogg]

honda's arent supposed to do to well w/ changed crank pulleys...or so im told

i say get a short throw shifter for the same amount, it would be better anywho

if i were to get the pullies i would get everything for my car...the altinator, the one underneath it and the main once that is huge...but i havn't seen aem making it so i would go with orthadox racing for the big one

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally posted by Shot 2 Hel
i say get a short throw shifter for the same amount, it would be better anywho

what's a short throw going to do for hp?

[ebpda9]

most of the hondas have a harmonic balancer in the crank pulley and you risk you engine at higher speeds. i've seen high mileage cars with a crappy idle (shaky) and after they changed the crank pulley (no other work) the idle smothened out considerably. as for the other pulleys i think they are worth if you are looking for eye candy.


and all the f2x series engines habe a balancer shaft rotating clockwise to dampen some of the engine vibration.

Why is it bad for electric motors to be underdriven, though? Do you know....cuz I've never heard that before, so obviously I have no clue why....

Yeah I meant capacitors....the caps really help with a large stereo system, they are an AC filter on your system which'll keep the stereo from bangin on the battery....but if it's like my case, where they just dim at idle because the alternator isn't spitting out juice, then caps won't really help any. But to correct you, they discharge a large amount of current at once, they hold the voltage constant.

For compressors, what's reversion?

Yeah I don't know much about Civics.....

Stefan: So are you saying this would or wouldn't be affected by changing the crank pulley?

b

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by spoogenet
For compressors, what's reversion?
Stefan: So are you saying this would or wouldn't be affected by changing the crank pulley?

b

well it depends on what you are replacing it with

-OEM replacement fine
-aftermarket not fine.

btw i never got your name, or if i did i forgot

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
what's a short throw going to do for hp?

i wasnt saying it would give him more horsepower, just better for the money IMO. lower shift time for about the same amound of $$$

[nonovurbizniz]

spoognet...

there is generally a point where electric motors no longer produce enough juice and spining them like that puts more stress on them...

I don't know the exact effects on an alternator but on an actual electric motor if you under power it or run it under it's min. turn rate it can damage if not destroy it... (I think the copper that's all spooled up starts to burn itself but again I'm not possitive)...

reversion is when the pressure already in the system is higher then a compressor is able to put out so the "backpressure" trys to spin the compressor backwards (it hardly ever happens) but it puts LOTS of stress on all the parts... It's the same sort of concept as turbo reversion if you know what that is... (if not it's why you have a bov... when the pressure on the Intake side is higher than the pressure the turbo is putting out it can seriously damage the turbo by spinning it backwards or stopping it... so the bov releases the pressure on the intake side before it can get back to the turbo.)

Shot2hell...

I'm not trying to be a d!ck but...

The time it takes for your transmission to shift is determined by the rpm and synchro design... shortening the distance your hand travels does not shorten the time it takes the tranny to shift...

It's more than possible to shift the civic tranny as fast (and faster) than the synchros allow with the stock shifter...

Short throw shifters are for feel an feel only.

pulleys are worth it, you can feel the difference when you run it

Stefan: You probably never knew it....errrr...I mean, you idiot, how could you do such a thing as forget my name??!! It's Bjorn.

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
spoognet...

there is generally a point where electric motors no longer produce enough juice and spining them like that puts more stress on them...

I don't know the exact effects on an alternator but on an actual electric motor if you under power it or run it under it's min. turn rate it can damage if not destroy it... (I think the copper that's all spooled up starts to burn itself but again I'm not possitive)...

My guess is that the min spin rate for a compressor would be pretty low, but it's just a guess because I don't know. And are you sure that they don't pump out much until 3-4k? My lights don't dim at 1k, but they do at 750....and on the highway, going 80, I'm only pulling 3k......in fact most of my driving is below 3k and I have yet to nuke the battery. I drive 2.5 miles each way to/from work every day of the week.....bad for the battery, but I haven't had any noticeable degradation of battery performance yet, implying my alternator works fine.....

reversion is when the pressure already in the system is higher....

That's what I suspected it meant, but wasn't sure. Thanks.

The time it takes for your transmission to shift is determined by the rpm and synchro design... shortening the distance your hand travels does not shorten the time it takes the tranny to shift...

It's more than possible to shift the civic tranny as fast (and faster) than the synchros allow with the stock shifter...

Short throw shifters are for feel an feel only.

Yeah, but it's also a fact that the shorter the distance to travel, the faster it can be done. So if you shift with your arm at speed X, you will shift the tranny faster with a short throw than with stock. You could call a short throw shifter a "slow man's shifter" or a "lazy man's shifter".....

So while it's true that shortening the distance it takes your hand to travel doesn't shorten the time it takes the tranny to shift, the basic assumption is that you're not moving your hand at the max speed the tranny can shift, so a short throw shifter makes the shift faster. Of course you've gotta get your leg moving at the right speed too to make it useful....

b

[nonovurbizniz]

Yeah I'm sure the aem ones don't do any harm...

if they did they would've stopped selling them or modified them... they are a pretty reputable company...

as far as the short shifter... I see what you're saying but with mine it actually seems slower... as I have to ease it in more than I did with the stocker... but I do LOVE the feel.. it's just more sporty feeling... but it's easier to miss gears too... overall I like it though it was almost free... can't beat that.