Jesus Camp

[GT40FIED]

So...ummm...yeah. I watched a screener for this flick last night and I have to say that I've never been more disgusted with humanity. It's a documentary about a group of kids from Missouri (why wouldn't it be right next to where I live?) who go to bible camp in South Dakota and learn all about (what I feel is) the extremely delusional side of christianity. It also follows as some of their parents force this shit into their heads. I'm not saying it's not ok to raise you're kids christian...that's your personal choice. However there is a fine line between instiling values and morals into your kids versus brainwashing them. At one point in the movie the kids join in prayer for "righteous judges" (by which they mean supreme court judges...the film was made around the time Alito was confirmed). Show me one 8 year old who knows what a judge does, much less a supreme court judge. It also has the kids convulsing in the aisles, speaking in tongues, praying to a cardboard cutout of George Bush, and all those other things normal kids like to do when they're 8 or 10. Surprisingly, this is no Michael Moore op-ed documentary (although whoever edited the trailer makes it look that way which is a mistake on their part) and the directors don't have anything at all to say. Sometimes they'll post a couple facts about evangelicals, but that's it. A mortified as I am after seeing this, I'd still recommend that people watch it. Not that I condone this sort of thing, but you might be able to find it on isohunt.com if you use bittorrent (errr....not that I would know or anything).



You may also enjoy the now disgraced Rev. Ted Haggard talking about the wrongs of homosexuality. This speech was probably given after he got done having meth fueled sex with a male prostitute. Way to go, Rev. Ted!

[Grip72]

religion = gaaaaay

[GT40FIED]

I would tend to agree with you on that Kyle...but it's not even entirely about religion. What bugs me is that these kids could grow up to have a say in the way this country is run (theoretically...if they ever stopped being so rampantly white trash). The people in this film see no seperation of church and state...religion is no way to run a government. If you need proof of that, look at...well...Bush's entire presidency. We need leaders...not a pastor in chief (and yes, the two are mutually exclusive).

I also feel bad for these kids. As some of you may know, I hate kids. Normally I would find particular glee in watching kids lifes get shit on, but these kids never even had a chance. Their parents have had them shitlisted since the day they were born. They've fed them so many lies and bullshit that there's really little to no chance of them ever becoming free thinking individuals.

[Robert]

You're judging something I sense you dont care to understand.

I do not agree with everything that people do in the name of God, however things like speaking in tounges is not uncommon when you're overcome by the spirit of God.

I think in this case its best if you hold judgement.

[GT40FIED]

Actually, it's something I do care to understand. I want to know why people flock to religion. Why? Because I, myself, don't buy into it and wonder why others do. To me organized religion poses no other purpose than to eliminate personal responsibility. If you can pawn off all of your wrong doings onto an intangiable figure, then how can you go wrong?

Say what you want, speaking in tongues is not even remotely normal behavior. It is a mental illness. Being "overcome by the spirit of god" (which is, in it's essence, logically fallible) is basically possession and a direct afront to your lord. God does not have a spirit. He sent his son down here to die for us (apparently). Then again, his son was also god (somehow). It's like a big West Virginia homecoming where there's a brother, sister, aunt, uncle, and father in the same room...but there's only 2 people there.

And honestly I think that after seeing this I have every right to judge. For fuck's sake, the woman that runs the place actually prays over her powerpoint presentations. Does god really care that your version of windows doesn't fuck up your powerpoint shit? If he does, he's spending too much time watching the faithful and not enough time watching sinners like me. I'm not saying it's not ok to discuss your beliefs. I'm saying that it's wrong to force them onto children. It's wrong to feed children opinions they couldn't possibly have on their own. It's wrong to use the name of god to endorse your own petty prejudices and bigotries. And it's also wrong to sit in judgement of someone and tell them not judge something themselves.

[Grip72]

edit:

i never even watche dthe video or read the entire post lol

[Robert]

Steve - you're viewing all of this from your point of view. You are not taking into considerations outside forces.

All the points you've brought up are symptoms of a great issue, you dont believe in God. Since you dont, none of the actions of a believer can been seen as 'normal'. News for you, none of us are 'normal' so I don't see the point in further debate on normal.

I will state it again, I do not approve of all actions carried out in the name of God. However, I do believe in Jesus and I have a relationship with him that you will not understand. That is ok. I would sugguest though that in your anger you do not seek to pass judgement or diminish the views of others.

If you are truly interested in figuring out about God, it doesn't require going to church. You can start by praying. If you simply wish to bash Christians for their believe you are serving no one any good. If this is your motive, to make fun of those who believe, I would ask "What is your problem?" and deal with the answers you come up with.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Robert

Steve - you're viewing all of this from your point of view. You are not taking into considerations outside forces.

All the points you've brought up are symptoms of a great issue, you dont believe in God. Since you dont, none of the actions of a believer can been seen as 'normal'. News for you, none of us are 'normal' so I don't see the point in further debate on normal.

I will state it again, I do not approve of all actions carried out in the name of God. However, I do believe in Jesus and I have a relationship with him that you will not understand. That is ok. I would sugguest though that in your anger you do not seek to pass judgement or diminish the views of others.

If you are truly interested in figuring out about God, it doesn't require going to church. You can start by praying. If you simply wish to bash Christians for their believe you are serving no one any good. If this is your motive, to make fun of those who believe, I would ask "What is your problem?" and deal with the answers you come up with.

I don't believe in god? Wow...that's news to me. It's true that I don't believe in your god, but that's a far cry from saying I don't believe in anything at all. I don't believe in a conditional god and I don't believe that god needs or even wants you to pledge your whole life to him/her/it. My ideas about god are probably best summed up by reading THIS

But I digress. The point of this is that there's nothing really christian about these people. So many people in this country are so quick to point out that religions like christianity are religions of peace and that religions like Islam are religions of the sword. Neither case is true, really since religion lies in people and people come from the factory with prejudices and troubles. But dressing your kids up like soldiers, telling them they're in a culture war, and that they're soldiers in god's army...that's pretty fucked.

[CD5Passion]

there are so many religions, and all of them are essentially connected to the same "god". personally i care to beleive what is evidence, evolution, dinosaurs. And I find it hard to trust religions when you have stuff such as the crusades lingering in the shadowed past.

[ebpda9]

Originally Posted by Robert

Steve - you're viewing all of this from your point of view. You are not taking into considerations outside forces.

From what i read in this thread so far steve kinda attacks the fanatic side of the religion. While i am a non beliver myself i kinda get pissed when someone tries to shove their religious beliefs down my throat. After all, the fanatics are the ones trying to brainwash and push people to do stupid things in the name of "GOD". Last time i checked the religion was about "forgiving" not trying to instigate people against others. While you may have your relationship with Jesus, i am sure you won't be coming and ask me to pray, or revolt against othersbased on their religious beliefs

[CD5Passion]

Originally Posted by ebpda9

From what i read in this thread so far steve kinda attacks the fanatic side of the religion. While i am a non beliver myself i kinda get pissed when someone tries to shove their religious beliefs down my throat. After all, the fanatics are the ones trying to brainwash and push people to do stupid things in the name of "GOD". Last time i checked the religion was about "forgiving" not trying to instigate people against others. While you may have your relationship with Jesus, i am sure you won't be coming and ask me to pray, or revolt against othersbased on their religious beliefs

"go to hell stefan!"

woah...i think I think I was overcome by the spirit of satan

sorry mang

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

But I digress. The point of this is that there's nothing really christian about these people. So many people in this country are so quick to point out that religions like christianity are religions of peace and that religions like Islam are religions of the sword. Neither case is true, really since religion lies in people and people come from the factory with prejudices and troubles. But dressing your kids up like soldiers, telling them they're in a culture war, and that they're soldiers in god's army...that's pretty fucked.

Steve there you go with your judging again.

If you read the bible it states those who believe fight a spritiual war against Satan.

The movement of mass amounts of childern, and an increasing number of adults coming to Jesus; is what some believe is one of the signs of the second coming of Christ.

I think it's pointless to argue with you, you're not open minded. Anything said to a different point is shot down because it doesnt fit with your view of the world.

We are at war everyday, society is telling us to chase SMP to make ourselves happy. God tells us this will not bring you enternal happiness. A relationship with him will bring about a more meaningful life. Anyone who goes against the values of society is at war, because we're being force feed the ideas of society through the media and other channels.

So you believe in God, when was the last time you spoke to him/it and heard back from him? Believing there is a God doesn't mean ANYTHING unless you have a relationship with God.

It is true there is only one God of the universe, however all gods worshiped are not the same.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by ebpda9

From what i read in this thread so far steve kinda attacks the fanatic side of the religion. While i am a non beliver myself i kinda get pissed when someone tries to shove their religious beliefs down my throat. After all, the fanatics are the ones trying to brainwash and push people to do stupid things in the name of "GOD". Last time i checked the religion was about "forgiving" not trying to instigate people against others. While you may have your relationship with Jesus, i am sure you won't be coming and ask me to pray, or revolt against othersbased on their religious beliefs

You're right, I do not force my views upon others. I do however stand fast in my views on God and the relationship.

I have prayed with no-believers, and pray often for my unsaved friends. It is amazing to me as a born again Christian who doesn't fit the stand sterotype of what a Christian looks/acts like that after praying for my friends, the come and talk to me about God. These are conversations I never started. It has happened far to often to think it could just be a coincident - which I do not believe are possible.

People miss the point of a relationship with God, it's like having another Father. Unless your father misstreated you as a child, your father normally does everything in his power to see you raised right and with the things you need. Now if your human Father would be like that, imagine what your spiritual Father God would want to do in your life. For me it started when I was 15 (when I excepted Jesus) and things have gone in a direction I would have never expected. It was baby steps, now I'm married, moving to California and starting my own business. None of these things are of my sole doing. God works in ways that are more complicated and harder to understand then the simple ways of the word. This is why when Steve applies his fussy logic to situations and attacks them I feel he doesnt have the whole picture. I have spared you all the details, those interested can PM me.

Steve - you thought it was funny the woman prays over he slides, I pray over every test, assignment, piece of work and before every business phone call. In highschool I finished with a 65% average, currently I hold a 3.51GPA (I believe 87-90%) in college, while working 35-40hours/week (excluding Sundays). My business is moving forward and when I call people I have never done business with before they want to do business with me. There are things you dont understand at work.

Example:

I prayed prior to finding a web developer. I intially contact one developer/designer he seemed really good. I then thought I should get more quotes, silly me. I wasted two weeks going through 10 different quotes only to come back to the same team. It cannot all be explained, I have learned to live with that.

Leave these people alone, all those kids look happy. They don't seem as angry and hurt about their conditions as you do.

[CD5Passion]

Originally Posted by Robert

So you believe in God, when was the last time you spoke to him/it and heard back from him? Believing there is a God doesn't mean ANYTHING unless you have a relationship with God.

It is true there is only one God of the universe, however all gods worshiped are not the same.

just so you know man, you are starting to sound like a crazy fanatic. Your views on what is "demanded" from "god" is not law. I in no means have a "relationship" with god. But i do beleive that if he is in fact the forgiving being we say he is he will understand that I am truly happy living my life the way I want.

sooo are you saying that if someone worships a god that doesn't seem related to yours, they are wrong?

[GT40FIED]

Did a christian just tell me I'm not open minded? Hello pot...my name is kettle. If anything I'm TOO open minded. I think anyone should be allowed to believe whatever they want and do whatever they want unless it hurts others. Therein lies my problem with overly fanatical members of any religion (though in this country they are predominantly christian). People in numerous states have banned things like gay marriage...not because it makes sense from a political or economical standpoint, but rather because a few obscure passages in the bible say it's wrong. I've also personally found that christians in general are against any kind of sexual exploration. So in turning your personal religious convictions into law these people have essentially told gays that they aren't worthy of the same rights as others. Nevermind that the few countries that have legalized it are doing just fine...or at least as well as they were before. This is just an example, but the problem is pretty rampant. I mean...if you truely believe the "end days" are near, then what's the point in energy conservation? Why not just trash this planet? No one will be around to enjoy it anyway so let's go hog wild. Right? Then again, people have been wrong before.

You see Rob, I don't have any quarrel with people like you. You believe what you want to believe and even though it's not my cup of tea, that's cool for you and I take no issue with it. Nor do I take issue with sensible people of any religion. However, you've got to realize that preaching to people isn't the only way of forcing beliefs on them. Anytime you vote for a law that is exclusionary based on your religions tenets you are basically forcing your beliefs onto others. People need to learn to seperate what they think is good for themselves and what's good for mankind as a whole. I wholeheartedly think that the actions of many of these fanatical christians (or muslims or jews or whatever) confrom to the Jungian archetype of an external tormentor...in this case a vengeful god. I truely believe that religious fanaticism is not something to be rewarded as it often is in this country...I think it belongs in the DSM-IV along with all of the other mental illness diagnosis. Just remember...this does NOT apply to the 98% of religious folks that are just trying to make good of their lives. More power to them. It's just unfortunate that they get drowned out by the crazies.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by CD5Passion

just so you know man, you are starting to sound like a crazy fanatic. Your views on what is "demanded" from "god" is not law. I in no means have a "relationship" with god. But i do beleive that if he is in fact the forgiving being we say he is he will understand that I am truly happy living my life the way I want.

sooo are you saying that if someone worships a god that doesn't seem related to yours, they are wrong?

You obviously don't understand the term fanatic, since you've so clearly miss used it. If you want to understand God better, read the new testiment. Nothing I've said is radical or even out there.

Since there can only be one God of the universe that rules over everything, by definition there cannot be multiples. I will leave it up to you to figure out what is right and what is wrong.

[CD5Passion]

Originally Posted by Robert

You obviously don't understand the term fanatic, since you've so clearly miss used it. If you want to understand God better, read the new testiment. Nothing I've said is radical or even out there.

Since there can only be one God of the universe that rules over everything, by definition there cannot be multiples. I will leave it up to you to figure out what is right and what is wrong.

there is no right and there is no wrong it's all basically the same

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

Did a christian just tell me I'm not open minded? Hello pot...my name is kettle. If anything I'm TOO open minded. I think anyone should be allowed to believe whatever they want and do whatever they want unless it hurts others. Therein lies my problem with overly fanatical members of any religion (though in this country they are predominantly christian). People in numerous states have banned things like gay marriage...not because it makes sense from a political or economical standpoint, but rather because a few obscure passages in the bible say it's wrong. I've also personally found that christians in general are against any kind of sexual exploration. So in turning your personal religious convictions into law these people have essentially told gays that they aren't worthy of the same rights as others. Nevermind that the few countries that have legalized it are doing just fine...or at least as well as they were before. This is just an example, but the problem is pretty rampant. I mean...if you truely believe the "end days" are near, then what's the point in energy conservation? Why not just trash this planet? No one will be around to enjoy it anyway so let's go hog wild. Right? Then again, people have been wrong before.

You see Rob, I don't have any quarrel with people like you. You believe what you want to believe and even though it's not my cup of tea, that's cool for you and I take no issue with it. Nor do I take issue with sensible people of any religion. However, you've got to realize that preaching to people isn't the only way of forcing beliefs on them. Anytime you vote for a law that is exclusionary based on your religions tenets you are basically forcing your beliefs onto others. People need to learn to seperate what they think is good for themselves and what's good for mankind as a whole. I wholeheartedly think that the actions of many of these fanatical christians (or muslims or jews or whatever) confrom to the Jungian archetype of an external tormentor...in this case a vengeful god. I truely believe that religious fanaticism is not something to be rewarded as it often is in this country...I think it belongs in the DSM-IV along with all of the other mental illness diagnosis. Just remember...this does NOT apply to the 98% of religious folks that are just trying to make good of their lives. More power to them. It's just unfortunate that they get drowned out by the crazies.

You just generalized me and sterotyped me into your view of a Christian. Remember it was Christians who founded this nation (Canada and America) and allowed freedom of religion. Don't sugguest for a moment they were not open minded. Christians are some of the most open minded and tollerate of people out there. You on the other hand have a problem with all organized religion, and in previous posts were calling for the removal of churchs for tax free statuses.

Has God ever forced his views onto you? I have never forced my views or preached to someone for the sake of it. God doesn't yell at you to get your attention he waits calmly whispering and hopes you will take up a conversation.

I think you need to be very careful of the use of the terms fanatical that you describe things that are 'extreem' or 'unusual'. I didnt see anything in that video I hadn't seen before (minus the kids with camo paint - though I've seen it paint balling) so it wasn't 'extreem' to me. However I find someone playing video games for 5 hours a day to be fanatical. See where being open minded comes in here?

There are things out there we haven't experienced/seen before. That doesn't make them wrong or bad.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Robert

You just generalized me and sterotyped me into your view of a Christian. Remember it was Christians who founded this nation (Canada and America) and allowed freedom of religion. Don't sugguest for a moment they were not open minded. Christians are some of the most open minded and tollerate of people out there. You on the other hand have a problem with all organized religion, and in previous posts were calling for the removal of churchs for tax free statuses.

Has God ever forced his views onto you? I have never forced my views or preached to someone for the sake of it. God doesn't yell at you to get your attention he waits calmly whispering and hopes you will take up a conversation.

I think you need to be very careful of the use of the terms fanatical that you describe things that are 'extreem' or 'unusual'. I didnt see anything in that video I hadn't seen before (minus the kids with camo paint - though I've seen it paint balling) so it wasn't 'extreem' to me. However I find someone playing video games for 5 hours a day to be fanatical. See where being open minded comes in here?

There are things out there we haven't experienced/seen before. That doesn't make them wrong or bad.

Actually I think the founding fathers were simply able to suspend their beliefs long enough to do what was right for everyone, not just themselves. But then again they were a bunch of rich white guys who didn't want to pay taxes. My, how times have changed. And you're right...there are many christians who are not judgemental and intollerant. Then again in that short trailer a woman dumps everyone in the world into 2 categories...believers and non-believers. And yeah, I do believe that many churches should pay taxes because many of them essentially sell a product. If you're church can seat more people than a football stadium, you obviously don't need any help with money.

Of course god doesn't yell at me. He doesn't yell at anyone. In fact, I would assume that if god exists in the way that you believe he does, he doesn't have time to talk to anyone. You talk to him, but whether or not anyone's listening is open for conjecture. Seems to me like that's a long wait for a train that doesn't come.

The clip I posted is just a trailer...I don't think I could post the whole movie (and would you really sit here for an hour and a half watching it? Over on youtube, however, I think someone cut the film in it's entirety up into several pieces. And you don't think that young children screaming "righteous judges now" is fanactical? Hell...it's fanatical on more than one level. It's not extreme or unusual (actually it's both), but it easily falls under the term "fanaticism".

And you're right...things aren't wrong because they're new and different. In this these things are wrong by virtue of the fact that they are morally repugnant and undertaken in the guise of belief.

[AzCivic]

fanatic Christians...they're such a problem in today's world. AAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!

why can't some of you rant on and on about the atrocities of some religion OTHER than freakin Christianity?

How about you get your pink panties in a bunch about those that want to KILL YOU NO MATTER WHAT YOUR RELIGION MAY BE! nah, just do what you always do, not much of anything I guess.

"oh no Christians are baaaaaaaad!!!!!! I'm scared that I might be held accountable for my actions, fuck religion! God doesn't have the time for this and that, I know everything!!!"

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

fanatic Christians...they're such a problem in today's world. AAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!

why can't some of you rant on and on about the atrocities of some religion OTHER than freakin Christianity?

How about you get your pink panties in a bunch about those that want to KILL YOU NO MATTER WHAT YOUR RELIGION MAY BE! nah, just do what you always do, not much of anything I guess.

"oh no Christians are baaaaaaaad!!!!!! I'm scared that I might be held accountable for my actions, fuck religion! God doesn't have the time for this and that, I know everything!!!"

Actually, extremist christians are a big problem. They've made their way into positions of power in DC as well as city and local offices. Hell...our president thinks he's got god on his side when it comes to the most disasterous war America has ever fought.

Why always christians? Because they're the ones in majority here in this country and the ones who seem to do the most dumb shit (again...in this country, anyway). I suppose if I lived in Israel I'd be pissed at jews and if I lived in Saudi Arabi I'd be pissed about muslims.

Let's quit pretending religions like islam (which is what I assume you were mocking with your asinine comment) are religions of the sword and christianity is all about peace. Christianity has launched more wars and continues to do so than any other force on the face of this earth. More people have died because of this "peaceful" religion than for any other single reason. "Oh N0z! BuT St3V3!! 1t pR3@cH3z PE@CE!". Yeah...and just like islam it also preaches tons of fucked up violence that no thinking person would embrace today. So go kill your son and fuck your stepdaughter, Abraham.

So wait...I'm not taking responsibilities for my actions because I'm NOT religious? Bwahahahahaha. Seriously? Religion negates any sort of personal responsibility in so much as all it takes to releave yourself of personal responsibility is to talk about how god made you how you are...essentially saying it's his fault not yours. Have you ever listened to those sad old fuckers at AA meetings? All they do is pray to god and put blame on everyone BUT themselves. It's fucking pathetic.

[Robert]

Steve you're wrong about Christianity waging more wars.

Islam was founded in 632AD and begun spreading by military conflict. It wasn't until they attempted to attack Europe that they were defeated twice by smaller armies. HOwever at that time they had spread from Spain to Asia. Islam has been at war since it's conception.

YOu need to make a distiguishment between those that are Christain and fight and those Christian religious leaders that call for war. For example if compairing Islam and Christainity, the Pope has not declared war. However the exivilant Islam leaders hass declared war. Right now it's on the West, prior it was against Russia, before that it was on Europe, prior to that it was on Jews/non-believers.

I think you need to do more research on this topic, once again I find the views you have to be lacking historical backings.

I do not pretend to know everything, however I have now studied religious conflicts and terrorism my views were radically changed. Though the Christian crusads might have been bad, you need to see the number of dead from Islam to put it in perspective.

Christianity is not a 'huge' problem in the world. China's government, straving African's, the war in Iraq, Iran's aim to remove Israel from the world, Muslim's rising up in England/Europe, Radical Islam's jihad against the West, North Korea Nukes and Russia-China-Iran treaty are huge issues in teh world.

On a final point here, Iran lead by a radical Islam leader is the only UN country to threaten the desctruction of another UN country, Israel. I mean common, put these comments you're making into perspective.

I'd love if it you could source your points. That would be amazing. I am interested to know how you form your opinions and if they're evidence based or simply uninformed opinion.

[AzCivic]

He forms his opinions using bits and pieces of stuff he thinks he remembers and then fills in the rest with his own absurd ramblings.

It's not even worth arguing really, he's so set in his oddball "truths" it's just a waste of time. But then he pretends to be oh so "open minded" which just shows how much of a hypocrite he really is.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

He forms his opinions using bits and pieces of stuff he thinks he remembers and then fills in the rest with his own absurd ramblings.

It's not even worth arguing really, he's so set in his oddball "truths" it's just a waste of time. But then he pretends to be oh so "open minded" which just shows how much of a hypocrite he really is.

Jesus tits, will you grow the fuck up? You waltz half way in to a discussion, leave some half-thought waste of a post, and now I'm wasting time responding to your rampant bullshit when I should be responding to Rob's post which was actually formulated with thought. You seem to have a grave misunderstanding between the notions of fact and opinion. There isn't much of anything I've stated here as fact and what little I have can be backed up. Yet you're intent on thinking I'm trying to warp facts or some such bullshit. You think I'm being a hypocrite by sayingI'm open minded...show me one instance where I've pigeonholed an entire group of people without just cause. Besides, even if I were to say something like "all christians rape sheep", do I really mean ALL? If you even have to ask, shut the fuck up. I mean...if you've got something intelligent to say then by all means throw it on the table. Otherwise just sit back and watch and knock off the god damned childish bullshit.

And Rob...a few quick bits of food for thought since I'm about sick of typing:

- You're right...islam has spread through wars and conflicts, but that's not to say that christianity was all hearts and flowers. You've got both Inquisitions, the crusades (against the muslims who got their shit stomped, ironically), and all manor of tin-horned leaders waging war under the guise of being righteous christians. *cough*current president*cough*

- While it's true the pope has never declared war, he's one part of one branch of christianity. It's not like protestants or anabaptists or mormons listen to a damn thing he says. And his (by "his", I mean different popes respectively) silence through many of the world's largest conflicts sure don't make him look like catholics are anti-war. Justy look at Vietnam. The catholics lost tons of patrons because priests were supporting the idea that we needed to be victorious over the godless communists.

- Islam has no central authority figure like the pope so it would be rather hard to compare the two. If one radical cleric cries out for war and another cleric talks about peace, they're still both muslims and it'd become hard to blame the entire religion for the faults of human beings.

[Robert]

I agree with you that there have been alot of deaths, but that was many years ago now. Islam has held unto the violent side of things.

BTW consider the deaths in Alexandra's time or the romain emprior.

There are still 'holy' leaders in mecca and medina who are calling out for war against the West, and thats as close to pope like they get. Though you're right its not as structured as Christianity.

The problem with Islam is two fold. The violence and intolerance to others. Though you might think christianity isn't tolerant, compaired to other religious we are one of the most and encourage believers to speak encouragement to no-believers.

To your ealier point with there only being to types of people in the world, belivers or non-believers. Its not radical. It's like saying the following:
-only smokers or non-smokers
-on males or females

[GT40FIED]

While it's certainly true that many muslim leaders are holding onto ideas of war against western culture, I think the idea of war against islam is still fairly well alive amongst some christians. When Bush starts saying things like god told him to attack Iraq, he sets a dangerous precident for christians everywhere. I mean...if you believe that god has personally told you to wage war you are clearly incompitent of leadership. So in some small, weird, demented way the idea of christians waring against muslims is as much alive today as it has been for years.

I think with islam you'll find just as many crazies as you will with christianity. By and large most followers of either religion are people who have their own minds and can respect diversity. However with muslims it seems a hell of a lot more prevelant that they'd commit an act of violence. Maybe it's because hostile forces occupy land they see as theirs (US vs. Iraq, Israel vs. Palestine, etc.) or maybe it's because they tend to live in hellholes and fire what have they got to lose. But christians play the god card, too. Every time an abortion clinic is bombed or a bill banning some sort of marriage is passed everyone loses...not just the people who were the targets. Violence in the name of your particular god is still violence.

And you're right...the world can be segmented into several bicameral categories like smokers and non-smokers, but that's hardly the issues of what that woman was implying. Many hardcore christians (especially evangelicals) harbor a superiority complex towards no-believers. They believe that they posssess a truth non-believers do not. Many would-be converters have talked down to me like I just didn't get it. No...I get it and I just don't agree. Talking to me like a 3 year old who isn't convinced Santa is real isn't helping. If many christians would stop talking like they have the ultimate answer and accept the possibility that I can not agree with them and still not be wrong then it would open a whole new door. Unfortunately i don't think that will ever happen.

[Robert]

I think you're taking a very few, limited personal experiences and making them into huge generalizations.

Secondly, Islam supports terrorism including the use of suicide bombers; Christianity does not.

The two religions are far apart from eachother in too many ways to say they are similar.

Finally if you want to see an example of God telling a 'King' to goto war read the bible. I cannot speak for Bushes comment, I dont know. However there are other Biblical examples of war being waged on behalf of God. Remember God does not say 'do not kill' he says 'do not murder' these two are very different.

[CD5Passion]

Originally Posted by Robert

I think you're taking a very few, limited personal experiences and making them into huge generalizations.

Secondly, Islam supports terrorism including the use of suicide bombers; Christianity does not.

The two religions are far apart from eachother in too many ways to say they are similar.

Finally if you want to see an example of God telling a 'King' to goto war read the bible. I cannot speak for Bushes comment, I dont know. However there are other Biblical examples of war being waged on behalf of God. Remember God does not say 'do not kill' he says 'do not murder' these two are very different.

I'm sorry but that is just one of those reason I find the "word of god" to be contradicting. Therefore, one of those reasons I could never bring myself to 100% beleive.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Robert

I think you're taking a very few, limited personal experiences and making them into huge generalizations.

Secondly, Islam supports terrorism including the use of suicide bombers; Christianity does not.

The two religions are far apart from eachother in too many ways to say they are similar.

Finally if you want to see an example of God telling a 'King' to goto war read the bible. I cannot speak for Bushes comment, I dont know. However there are other Biblical examples of war being waged on behalf of God. Remember God does not say 'do not kill' he says 'do not murder' these two are very different.

Well Rob...honestly...you're also making generalizations. Sure, there are sects of islam that endorse bombings (can we all stop calling them "suicide bombings"? They're intent is to kill everyone, not just the asshole carrying the bomb) but to say that islam supports them is really just plain false. I'm sure the number of muslims that would denounce such bombings would vastly outweigh the number who would support it. It's much the same as a small number of radical "christians" (quotations used because their actions hardly embody the teachings of christ) would praise Eric Rudolph or Tim McVeigh for bombing abortion clinics and federal buildings respectively. If you get a chance, I strongly suggest watching a documentary called "Soldiers In The Army Of God". It follows members of the terroristic arm of the anti-abortion movement and their actions eerily parallel radical muslim violence.

As for wars fought for god, that's pretty ambiguous. Who gets to decide which wars are "for god" let alone if god would really want you to kill anyone? Wouldn't it make more sense for god to do the killing and leave you out of the loop and with a clear conscience? He is, after all, supposed to be omnipotent. The one major flaw in all religious conflict is man. No matter what a certain religion teaches, if there's someone out there that can twist it into a violent context they will and then claim to be the bringers of righteous justice. Man comes standard with biases, bigotries, and prejudices and (most) religion does not. The bible commands christians to convert and/or kill non-believers the same way the Qu ran does...they just seem to take it more seriously than christians do. And really, the only difference between dictionary definitions of "murder" and "killing" are that murder has to be committed with malice aforethought. I'd say sending thousands of troops off to convert people totally unprovoked (like in the crusades) definitely qualifies as malice aforethought since it has to be planned and prepared for on a pretty big scale. And really, I'm pretty sure "thou shalt not KILL" is a commandment...one of only two that are actually laws (which shows you how seriously we take religion in this country). I can covet the hell out of my neighbor's wife, I can disrespect my parents all I want, and I can even worship false idols...but stealing and killing are the only legal no-nos.

[Robert]

This difference between you and I on this point is the fact my comments go beyond my own personal experiences and into readings. I've read/studied the topic of terrorism, fantical Islam, and wars waged on behalf of Islam. Your points appear to come from a very localized experience and often go contrary to fact.

As for the commandment, it was not originally written in English. When translated over the years it was mistranslated. If you go back to the orignal commandments the direct translation is 'murder'. Please provide me the quote from the Bible that states this 'The bible commands christians to convert and/or kill non-believers.' If you cannot provide a quote I will assume this is your opinion and not fact. Only in Islam did muhamad hold up the Quran and his sword and say these are the two ways to convertion. To my point, you cannot save someone who's dead. The point of Christianity is not to punish/kill people it's to lift them up and help them develop a relationship with God. Ultimately Christians are to help win people over to Jesus. Just as though you cannot force a friendship upon someone in the world, you cannot force a relationship (a true relationships) with God on someone.

To your point on deciding when we goto war. Thats why we have leaders of the country. If you read up on King David in the Bible he was a man of God. When he went to war it was for the Kingdom of God and because God told him too.

If you don't believe in God speaking to people, or God in general everything God related will be a complete disconnect.

I dont think you're actually interested in knowning anything more about God. I think you're looking to confirm your current beliefs. If you're actually interested in knowing more about God, you can pray and when you do things will start happening. Maybe not the first time you pray but over time you will build a relationship.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by CD5Passion

I'm sorry but that is just one of those reason I find the "word of god" to be contradicting. Therefore, one of those reasons I could never bring myself to 100% beleive.

The word of God is perfect. The issue is with man.

It is through our imperfections that we screw up and mistranslate what God has/is saying.

See my comment to Steve on the commandment issue.