Man do I ever love the military

[GT40FIED]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ilitary_gays_1

Sooooo pathetic. I can imagine a bunch of officers sitting around a table and saying "hey...we've got a bunch of fags in our outfit. regardless of their qualifications let's discharge them solely on their sexual preference". What a bunch of fucking dolts. Look at me, I'm great at my job...I also happen to be gay so please discharge me and lose all of the knowledge I have and replace me with a completely retarded, yet straight, moron. Seriously...did the military become the boy scouts when I wasn't looking? Is your sexual preference really so important that you'd degrade national security by employing inferior workers on the basis of sexual preference alone? As long as you don't try to bang your CO, I don't see the problem. That being said, I do realize that probably 97% of the front line fighters are so incredibly homophobic that they"d beat the living hell out of a "fag" simply for being gay. Maybe I'm missing some important strategic military aspect of this...but as long as they're not trying to take the hershey highway with you in the barracks, what the fuck is the problem here?

[V8killimports]

Funny how little you do know about the military..

First off how are the people replacing these gays any less able in that job field?

Second how is it that you know that 97% of US front liners are homophobic?

Please thank your personal hero Clinton for the current policy. It was his, and is the current rule that stands.

No comment...I have nothing nice to say about gay's being in the military...so I won't say anything...

[ebpda9]

"We need to defend the law, and the law says that homosexuality is incompatible with military service," Donnelly said. "There is no shortage of people in the military, and we do not need people who identify themselves as homosexual."

then why all the talk about a mandatory draft ? seriously i don't care if they are gay or not, as long they do their job

[IALuder]

yup. no comment.

One comment about the military is that I think that all it's trying to do is maintain it's traditionalism...

Maybe they don't want gay people to take the don't ask don't tell policy when we need them the most, but not saying that they got out because fear of war or whatever

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by V8killimports
Funny how little you do know about the military..

First off how are the people replacing these gays any less able in that job field?

Second how is it that you know that 97% of US front liners are homophobic?

Please thank your personal hero Clinton for the current policy. It was his, and is the current rule that stands.

Oh V8 . As for people knowing how to do their job...my guess (or hope) is that if there these are the best people for the job or else they wouldn't be doing it. As for my comment about the front liners, no, I don't know that, it's just an exaggeration. It does seem that way, though. Almost all of the ones I've ever met have been one of those good 'ole boys. And how did Clinton get dragged into this? You know I don't like that fuck. He had some good policies and we were certainly in better shape than we have been with Bush...but overall the guy's a lying cocksucker.

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Oh V8 . As for people knowing how to do their job...my guess (or hope) is that if there these are the best people for the job or else they wouldn't be doing it. As for my comment about the front liners, no, I don't know that, it's just an exaggeration. It does seem that way, though. Almost all of the ones I've ever met have been one of those good 'ole boys. And how did Clinton get dragged into this? You know I don't like that fuck. He had some good policies and we were certainly in better shape than we have been with Bush...but overall the guy's a lying cocksucker.

And the people that replace them will know their job just as well.

[GT40FIED]

Maybe...but my point is why replace them at all? In every single other occupation in the country (with the exception of the Boy Scouts and the church) someone could sue your ass blind if you fired them for being gay. Yet the military is allowed to discriminate freely. And forget for a second that these people were good enough for enlistment (which isn't true of a lot of people)...the fact that they're kicking them out based on sexual preference makes the military look soooooo childish that it's almost troubling.

[IALuder]

GT40 brings up very good points. but still i wont comment on it.

Originally posted by V8killimports
And the people that replace them will know their job just as well.

This is true. The reason they are being discharged is because of the "don't ask don't tell policy" (as I'm sure you know).

That policy is beaten into our/their heads all the way through boot camp, and you are given PLENTY of chances to get out. Regardless of whether you agree with it or not - it is their perogative.

And FYI - the reason that the military is staunchly against homosexuality (in the service) is because it detracts from unit morale, cohesion, and readiness. We had to take sooo many classes on avoiding interpersonal relationships with other people in a wartime environment. Having a homosexual in your squad would really change the dynamics of how the squad works together.

QUOTE:
" 'Don't ask, don't tell' allows gays to serve in the military as long as they keep their sexual orientation private and do not engage in homosexual acts."

"About 27 percent of the discharges came from the Navy, 22 percent from the Air Force, and 9 percent from the Marines. " - Notice how most of them came from the Navy.

Does that clarify at all, or are they still completely stupid? Sorry, but when people rag on the military, it pisses me off.

- Dzur

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Maybe...but my point is why replace them at all? In every single other occupation in the country (with the exception of the Boy Scouts and the church) someone could sue your ass blind if you fired them for being gay. Yet the military is allowed to discriminate freely. And forget for a second that these people were good enough for enlistment (which isn't true of a lot of people)...the fact that they're kicking them out based on sexual preference makes the military look soooooo childish that it's almost troubling.

It's set on rules and standards.. change the standards and you won't have a problem. To tell you the truth, the majority of the military doesn't care. It's the guy up top who enforces the standard set upon him. Why can't I have a piercing while in uniform? Because that's the standard. No rhyme or reason. Why can't my sideburns be lower than my ear? Because that's the standard. The military can discriminate because they deal with things a little more important and more valuable than most.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by GeneralDzur
And FYI - the reason that the military is staunchly against homosexuality (in the service) is because it detracts from unit morale, cohesion, and readiness. We had to take sooo many classes on avoiding interpersonal relationships with other people in a wartime environment. Having a homosexual in your squad would really change the dynamics of how the squad works together.

Morale? Yes...I'm sure morale is through the roof right now what with the people coming home daily in coffins and whatnot. As far as cohesion...I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I'm sure everyone in the military does not like everyone else in the military. Hell...people in the same units probably hate each other. And how the hell does it detract from readiness? Maybe in the civilian world they're like women and take too damned long to get ready...but when your wardrobe is severely limited to fatigues I'm sure this isn't an issue. So what's next? Kick out blacks because you don't like their music and you think they *might* commit a crime? Sounds silly, but I gaurantee you that people who have enough of a problem with gays to kick them out probably don't like blacks much, either.

Does that clarify at all, or are they still completely stupid? Sorry, but when people rag on the military, it pisses me off.

Actually you clarified it and it's still completely stupid. Why would it piss you off when people rag on the military? I do it all the time. But unless you're a policy maker then nothing I say is aimed at you. Not like you have a choice in the matter.

[V8killimports]

Why can't they keep it private? Military or no military I don't want to know how fred sucked the shit out of John's dick while Erik was pounding him in the ass.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by V8killimports
It's set on rules and standards.. change the standards and you won't have a problem. To tell you the truth, the majority of the military doesn't care. It's the guy up top who enforces the standard set upon him. Why can't I have a piercing while in uniform? Because that's the standard. No rhyme or reason. Why can't my sideburns be lower than my ear? Because that's the standard. The military can discriminate because they deal with things a little more important and more valuable than most.

You're comparing physically outward uniformity to trying to tell people what they can and cannot think. I see what you're saying...and I suppose it loosely applies. But while you can tell someone to take out an earring, this isn't like that episode of South Park where Stan tells his dog "don't be gay!" like he's telling it to roll over or shake. I'd also be very interested in seeing a document that specifically sets a standard for not having gays around. I don't know...maybe there is one...I've just never heard of it or seen it.

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
You're comparing physically outward uniformity to trying to tell people what they can and cannot think. I see what you're saying...and I suppose it loosely applies. But while you can tell someone to take out an earring, this isn't like that episode of South Park where Stan tells his dog "don't be gay!" like he's telling it to roll over or shake. I'd also be very interested in seeing a document that specifically sets a standard for not having gays around. I don't know...maybe there is one...I've just never heard of it or seen it.

The policy is not don't be gay.. the policy is don't ask and don't tell.

[VR4_Craver]

So...then what I understand is that someone asked them about their sexual preferences???Is that how it all happened? Because why punish someone for telling the truth when asked?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by VR4_Craver
Because why punish someone for telling the truth when asked?

Because, apparently, telling the truth is unamerican. Telling the truth makes you an "evil doer". Oh....wait.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by V8killimports
The policy is not don't be gay.. the policy is don't ask and don't tell.

Right but in effect that policy says "don't be gay or we'll boot your ass out". Again...maybe I've missed something, but I doubt it.

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Right but in effect that policy says "don't be gay or we'll boot your ass out". Again...maybe I've missed something, but I doubt it.

No it's doesn't.. don't walk into your squadron holding your boyfriend's hand... it is EASY to keep it private if you wanted. If you don't want to keep it private don't be in the militart. Believe it or not the military is not for everybody.

BTW, I can't even display any PDA in uniform.. and when I am deployed it was POLICY that I could not spend the night (co-habitate)with my wife.. and yes.. if I was caught I would face a LOC, LOR, then eventually an article 15. So please don't tell me about how policies suck... because I know and I deal with them in my own way.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by V8killimports
No it's doesn't.. don't walk into your squadron holding your boyfriend's hand... it is EASY to keep it private if you wanted. If you don't want to keep it private don't be in the militart. Believe it or not the military is not for everybody.

BTW, I can't even display any PDA in uniform.. and when I am deployed it was POLICY that I could not spend the night (co-habitate)with my wife.. and yes.. if I was caught I would face a LOC, LOR, then eventually an article 15. So please don't tell me about how policies suck... because I know and I deal with them in my own way.

Alright...so if you know the policies suck, then why defend one that isn't as trivial as kissing your wife in uniform? It's purely discrminatory and has no relevence on how well someone does their job. If another member of the unit is so uncomfortable around a gay guy that he's having problems with his duties, it would seem to me that the problem lies with that serviceman's own issues and not with the gay man. That is to say, if being around gays disrupts your train of thought that badly, you're fuckin pathetic.

[V8killimports]

You didn't read my whole post.. I am not supposed to go in the female tent which means no sex or sleeping with my wife.. I don't call that trivial... that sucks.. but is policy.. I don't outright defy the policy.. I do it quietly.. as would any smart person. If you want to be gay, fine.. but STFU about it.

[AzCivic]

i bet 3/4 of the people who get kicked out cause they're "gay" do that shit on purpose, they cant handle the military so they say they're gay to get out w/ out having to go through some punishment type crap. oh and they also still get their little MGIB, i'm sure.

[AzCivic]

and the other 1/4 are just retarded, prancing around telling everyone they're gay.

[AzCivic]

"The study, which analyzed discharges between 1998 and 2003, found the majority of those let go under "don't ask, don't tell" were active duty enlisted personnel in the early stages of their careers."

oh look at that, thats right when someone finds out what the military is like and determines whether they can handle it or not.

[VR4_Craver]

Originally posted by AzCivic
[Boh look at that, thats right when someone finds out what the military is like and determines whether they can handle it or not. [/b]

I seriously doubt that "early in their career" is when people find out what its like because that is why the make boot camps the way they are.

You didn't read my whole post..

He quoted your whole post. He understood what it meant. He still said that you not being able to being in "intimate" contact with the one your married is a stupid policy.

And the policy very much says in a non shown way that if your hinged on the wrong side of what is called "normal" then you have no place in a "normal American" armed services. How many of the people discarged did anything wrong? How many were repremanded for something that was dangerous, or negligent to actually justify the discharges?

Morale? Yes...I'm sure morale is through the roof right now what with the people coming home daily in coffins and whatnot.

And them pushing back return dates for pretty much everyone

[AzCivic]

yeah while your in boot camp your just gonna yell out "I'm gay" while your too scared to even speak. furthermore, bootcamp IS early in their career.

I guess showering w/ some gay tart while he looks you up and down and gets a boner sounds like fun to you, retards.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
I guess showering w/ some gay tart while he looks you up and down and gets a boner sounds like fun to you, retards.

Now this is where most straight guys get it wrong. They assume every gay guy is checking out their shit all the time. More than likely, unless you have qualities gay men look for, you might as well be a chick. Besides...anyone who goes to a gym can have the luxury of getting eyed up by gay guys. But then again I suppose having a gay guy eye you up and down is MUCH more disturbing than having a straight guy check out your junk.

[VR4_Craver]

Originally posted by AzCivic
yeah while your in boot camp your just gonna yell out "I'm gay" while your too scared to even speak. furthermore, bootcamp IS early in their career.

I guess showering w/ some gay tart while he looks you up and down and gets a boner sounds like fun to you, retards.

Ok, you obviously didnt comprehend what I typed. I stated that in boot camp they can get out of there anytime they want to. You simply restate what was established. No, I doubt that anyone will yell out that he/she likes the same sex. But I doubt the people that got kicked out walked around telling everyone they came up to that they are gay. If some gay guy was checking me out I wouldnt bitch out and run to to the next guy above me jumping up and down saying *whiney little girls voice* "He's checking him out make him stop" I would just tell him I dont swing that way.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by VR4_Craver
Ok, you obviously didnt comprehend what I typed. I stated that in boot camp they can get out of there anytime they want to. You simply restate what was established. No, I doubt that anyone will yell out that he/she likes the same sex. But I doubt the people that got kicked out walked around telling everyone they came up to that they are gay. If some gay guy was checking me out I wouldnt bitch out and run to to the next guy above me jumping up and down saying *whiney little girls voice* "He's checking him out make him stop" I would just tell him I dont swing that way.

in that link one idiot told his COMMANDER that he was gay, how freakin retarded is that? oh wait, sounds like he wanted out.

[AzCivic]

oh and i'm sorry if being eye balled by some gay dude is uncomfortable, straight people dont do it. just like I wouldnt want to shower w/ some broads i didnt know.

[nonovurbizniz]

They should have gay squads... or troops or whatever... It obviously makes at the very least some of the straight guys uncomfortable... SO they have rights too... Make all gay squads...

Same goes for girls... they should be allowed to do whatever they want to if they're capable...

HAVING SAID THAT...

I don't think ANY policy should be impossed upon the miltary.. obviously there should be over sight... but non-military folks simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND the miltary or how it works or what is neccisary to it's existance and functionality... The only usefull thing a non-military can know about the military is that he knows JACK SH!T about it... if you want to know about the military you should enlist... period...

After seeing a special on female "marines"... I QUICKLY saw how bad politics is for the military... they wouldn't allow women in the marines for ever... when they did... they had to COMPLETELY change the way they trained them because they couldn't handle the way the men were trained... hence IMO even if you complete basic for the marines as a girl... you ARE NOT a marine... no matter what any patch, uniform, or piece of paper says...

I'm sorry but Full Metal Jacket is HOW IT SHOULD BE in basic... if you can't handle mental abuse of WORDS... then how the hell are you going to cope with actuall danger and seriously stressful situations...

Even if it does mean a few dudes loose their sh!t... Plus now you can drop out if you can't take it...

As far as don't ask don't tell... I think it's the best possible way...

If there were openly gay people in the military (without segregation) all hell would break loose... the effectiveness of the military WOULD be affected... With no homosexuals allowed in the military it's just not fair to those who are genuinely gay and want to serve their country...

I know several people who found out YEARS after they served with people that those people were in fact gay... NO ONE had ANY idea whatsoever the WHOLE time they were in the military together... That should be NO PROBLEM for a gay guy in the military... unless feminine manerisms out them.... in which case you're F'd IMO... Hide it if you want to serve.

On another side of my opinion, I think that if someone is gay, and they want to serve in the US Military, I think they should hide it, keep it in the closet. You only wear that uniform 8 to 12 hours a day and afterwards, they can do what they please...another thing is that if you display your homosexuality outside of the military, say it's your day off and you and your honey decide to go out, and one of your superiors just so happen to see you and your honey, regardless of how hard it was hidden in uniform, that person is still screwed. The military seems to display and act on standards on and off duty...that's the military...

[black95gs-t]

GT,
Let me explain this to you from the prospective of a "front liner" as you put it. If I didn't know for sure that someone was gay, I would not have a problem with it. If I did know for sure I definatly would have a problem with it. Here is my reasoning. As Grunts, we do everything together. Eat, sleep, read letters from home, everything. With what we do, we need to have a close bond with everyone we work with. We need to trust them and their abilities. Being "out" in the military would detract from a unit's integrity because there would always be that aquardness. "Was he looking at me in the shower?" "Was he staring at me when I was getting dressed?" That kind of stuff. Yes it is trivial. However, When push comes to shove it is one less thing floating around in the back of my brain. On second thought, I don't really know how to explain this. Its one of those outside looking in, inside looking out kinda things. Either way, in a perfect world, it would not be an issue. Here it is though.
J

[black95gs-t]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
They should have gay squads... or troops or whatever... Make all gay squads...

They will have a big pink guidon with pink cammies and pink barretts. Wait a minute. We already have that. Its called the French military. Look how successful they are.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by black95gs-t
GT,
Let me explain this to you from the prospective of a "front liner" as you put it. If I didn't know for sure that someone was gay, I would not have a problem with it. If I did know for sure I definatly would have a problem with it. Here is my reasoning. As Grunts, we do everything together. Eat, sleep, read letters from home, everything. With what we do, we need to have a close bond with everyone we work with. We need to trust them and their abilities. Being "out" in the military would detract from a unit's integrity because there would always be that aquardness. "Was he looking at me in the shower?" "Was he staring at me when I was getting dressed?" That kind of stuff. Yes it is trivial. However, When push comes to shove it is one less thing floating around in the back of my brain. On second thought, I don't really know how to explain this. Its one of those outside looking in, inside looking out kinda things. Either way, in a perfect world, it would not be an issue. Here it is though.
J

I hear what you're saying...but think about all the gays there already that you don't know about. If you can't tell and it's not an issue then, why would it be an issue if you did know? I would certainly hope that members of the armed forces aren't so close minded they would feel less of a cohesive bond as a unit simply because someone was gay. Besides, does someone's sexuality give more or less trust in their abilities as a soldier? I mean there's probably a good number of gays already there you don't know about and doing a great job...but all of a sudden the fact they're gay makes you question their abilities? Aside from that...the military seems to have some homoerotic undertones to it's policies. Guys eating, sleeping, and showering together for long periods of time. Nope...can't think of anything more straight than that. Just remember the next time you're showering up that you don't know whether or not that guy next to you is gay or not. And even if he's not there's a good chance he's checking out your junk anyway.

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally posted by black95gs-t
They will have a big pink guidon with pink cammies and pink barretts. Wait a minute. We already have that. Its called the French military. Look how successful they are.

There were gay samurai... they paired lovers together and they basically killed the crap out of ANYONE who came near them... they fought more passionately to protect their loved one...

I didn't know the French had pink Cami's...that would be very weird to see...Im just now getting used to the green again...

[Rob]

Originally posted by Kool-Aid
I didn't know the French had pink Cami's...

sorry