A scientific analysis

[GT40FIED]

After an exhaustive study of all of the people who are me...I can conclude that the popular notion of "god" doesn't exist. Why? Read on (taken from my own blog/site).

Ok...so I've made peace with the fact that I do not believe in a christian god. That should be a given. Something like 98% of hardcore christians are morons. I am not a moron, so that statement should be logical. But then again, I do not believe in the jewish, muslim, or budhist incarnation of god or clandestine spirit...where applicable. As I search for a reasoning for this lack of belief, I recognize two categories for my system...both of which would fault a supreme diety as a factor. First of all, if a god wanted me to believe in him, he/she/it could certainly make it so. I mean...it's a god, right? God would have the power to smite your ass if you don't believe...and since I have yet to be smote, I can only reach the conclusion that the god portrayed in christian mythology does not exist. The second factor...people. My inclination to not believe in god could rise from the seeming retardation that arises from many who do believe in such a diety. Surely if a god did exist, his primary enthusiasts would not be such babbling morons. A god could simply interject a person into my life that would give me no recourse but to believe. Since this has not happened, I am also forced to conclude that there is not a god working through human beings to give me causation to believe. So in summation, I must be forced to conclude that a god in the popular sense of the does not exist. Not for the mere fact that I do not believe, but for the fact that he/she/it has not shown me the proper way to think to gain his/her/it's favor. Seriously...try and fault that for it's scientific accuracy. You can't, because there is no reality, only perception. If a god really loved me and wanted me to be by it's side, would it not show me the clear and unavoidable path to achieve that status? If it had, wouldn't I know it by now? The only real explaination is that "god" is a creation of man. For what? Most likely to deal with frustrations of the unknown...death. In any event, I'll keep the faith in my own way...shut the fuck up about how you keep the faith in your way and pretend it's "correct".

[pdiggitydogg]

What if its easier for 'god' to control "morons"? Maybe its supposed to be that way for the simple sake of....simplicity and ease of control. The same holds true for anyone who wants to gain a secure foothold of power and/or leadership.

Now, a religious person would tell you that 'god' wants you to find your own path and not force himself upon you in such a tyrannic fashion. Yet, the christian bible clearly states that 'god' is vengeful and you should worship him. Quite the contrary of what christians are telling you. If you choose not to worship you suffer the consequences. Which brings me back the point that all religion is just threats. 'God' becomes the angry parental figure telling a child to clean their room or there will be no dinner. Finish your dinner or there is no dessert.

[AzCivic]

here's some science:

what are the odds that everything in the universe fell in line just the way they did to produce you and I and everything else? the odds are impossible. furthermore if you dont believe in god you believe in something just as "mythical" that everything in this universe came from nothing. either way you're believing in something you CANNOT prove. One beliefs tells you there's a reason to the universe the other says its all just a impossible coinsidense.

its been said by great mathematicians that the odds of everything coming together just so, JUST to have life on this planet are the same as having a tornado rip through a stack of building supplies and leaving a built house in its wake. its possible, but it'll never happen.

if you can believe in one impossibility why is it wrong for someone else to believe in another "impossibility"??

oh, and not all christians are idiots, but I guess you've met every christian so your statement must be sound
i'll add to it, saying that 98% of everyone who drives a mustang, is a lonely person desperatly trying to make themselves feel more important than those around him by reasoning that everyone else is an idiot while also believing they know everything.

[pdiggitydogg]

I kinda thought that later in the day, that not all hard-core christians are idiots...I now remember quite a few that are also labeled genius.

In all reality, it doesnt take much to make an amino acid, just a few proteins in the right spot. Then it doesnt take much more for a group of them to start forming something. There isnt much to a cell stucture. Theyre all made from the same basic elements of H,K,Cl,Ca,C, and Na. Once cells start to come out, it wouldnt take long for them to figure out that they survive better together.

Sure, the chances are slim...but theyre slim that a child can be born, that lighning will strike twice, and around a gajillion other things. But they happen.

I just find it interesting that people can just say "God made us" and call it done. Guess thats faith, and I dont understand it.
No, science cant prove that we came around that way. But it can prove adaptaion. With adaptation comes evolution. With evolution comes just about everthing else.
Religious books cant prove anything either, by the way.

Havent we had this discussion already?

[ebpda9]

some things are left inexplicable, like why azcivic starts personal atacks when other's pov's are not like his. and btw buddy that's strike 2 for name calling. on 3 you are out.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
here's some science:

what are the odds that everything in the universe fell in line just the way they did to produce you and I and everything else? the odds are impossible. furthermore if you dont believe in god you believe in something just as "mythical" that everything in this universe came from nothing. either way you're believing in something you CANNOT prove. One beliefs tells you there's a reason to the universe the other says its all just a impossible coinsidense.

its been said by great mathematicians that the odds of everything coming together just so, JUST to have life on this planet are the same as having a tornado rip through a stack of building supplies and leaving a built house in its wake. its possible, but it'll never happen.

if you can believe in one impossibility why is it wrong for someone else to believe in another "impossibility"??

oh, and not all christians are idiots, but I guess you've met every christian so your statement must be sound
i'll add to it, saying that everyone who drives a mustang, is a lonely person desperatly trying to make themselves feel more important than those around him by reasoning that everyone else is an idiot while also believing they know everything.

The "science"of the beginning of everything is not science at all. It's speculation. Everyone has they're theories...and I'd venture that a big bang is about as unlikely as a supreme force somehow creatiing itself from nothing (an impossibility) and then being created by that same force. And who says that we're the only planet there's like of? Life is by no means an accident and it would be arrogant to think that in a space occupied by our galaxy and 100 billion others that we're all alone out here.

I also don't remember saying all christians were idiots. Quite the opposite, many christians are normal, level-headed people. It's the hardcore fundamental ones that are idiots. The ones who picket clinics and sue rock groups over the content of their albums. Such things are unreasonable and moronic...so these people are morons. If you want to throw around names based on who drives what, go ahead. All that does is take away from your argument and make you look petty and small.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by hondaman-iac
some things are left inexplicable, like why azcivic starts personal atacks when other's pov's are not like his. and btw buddy that's strike 2 for name calling. on 3 you are out.

oh no dont ban me from a site that has like 8members i added 98% to my post so now i'm not calling anyone names.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
I kinda thought that later in the day, that not all hard-core christians are idiots...I now remember quite a few that are also labeled genius.

In all reality, it doesnt take much to make an amino acid, just a few proteins in the right spot. Then it doesnt take much more for a group of them to start forming something. There isnt much to a cell stucture. Theyre all made from the same basic elements of H,K,Cl,Ca,C, and Na. Once cells start to come out, it wouldnt take long for them to figure out that they survive better together.

Sure, the chances are slim...but theyre slim that a child can be born, that lighning will strike twice, and around a gajillion other things. But they happen.

I just find it interesting that people can just say "God made us" and call it done. Guess thats faith, and I dont understand it.
No, science cant prove that we came around that way. But it can prove adaptaion. With adaptation comes evolution. With evolution comes just about everthing else.
Religious books cant prove anything either, by the way.

Havent we had this discussion already?

the odds of those things happening can be called slim, life orginating from inanimate objects is way WAY WAY WAY times a billion trillion times less likely.

[GT40FIED]

Yes...because the car your drive and the belief systems you hold are so similar. One is obviously as influential in the way you conduct your life as the other. Congratulations...you've cracked the code.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
shut the fuck up about how you keep the faith in your way and pretend it's "correct".

thats a rather hypocritical statement... i know my own version of religion and stick to it, but pushing this on people is almost as bad as pushing religion on someone. i say find your own belief and stick to it, dont push it on someone more than needed.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
but pushing this on people is almost as bad as pushing religion on someone. i say find your own belief and stick to it, dont push it on someone more than needed.

I'm not trying to push it on anyone. Notice the frequent use of the pronouns "I" or "my", etc. I also believe that everyone needs to find their own thing, but fortunately "everyone" includes me so I'm simply describing my own observations and conclusions. See? Science can be fun.

[Wren57]

Steve, correct me if I am wrong, but the way I understand what you've written is that you don't believe in a God because he hasn't presented himself to you. This is the whole issue with faith. Sure it would be easy to believe in God if he walked up to you one day on the street, or visited you in your bedroom while you were asleep, or somehow, as you put it, forced you to believe. But, if we as humans were forced to believe, would our worship of God really matter? Thats almost like being told to say "thank you" after recieving a gift; it loses all meaning if you are forced into it. It is my strong, firm belief that people have a choice in everything regarding the way they live their lives. It is your choices that define your character, and your character that defines you as traditionally "good" or "evil". To choose to have faith and believe in God (whatever that means to you), is a CHOICE; that is what is so great. Freedom is great. God allows humans freedom, even from him. Now, you may rebut that God doesn't allow freedom because he punishes for disobedience, but it is widely accepted that God will forgive everyone who truly seeks forgiveness, even if they have been disobedient. Do you or I know the complete truth about everything in the universe and beyond? No, but I have my beliefs, and they guide me through my life. I live a happy life and do my best to do good deeds every day, trying to be a positive in other people's lives. After all, what is more important in life than your effect on other people? I don't go to church, but carry out my faith through good works.

Cliffs notes;
1. Steve doesn't believe in God because he hasn't presented himself to Steve (materialistic viewpoint)
2. God has given humans ultimate freedom
3. Steve; what purpose would be served by God making us worship him?
4. I believe in faith through good works

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
If a god really loved me and wanted me to be by it's side, would it not show me the clear and unavoidable path to achieve that status? If it had, wouldn't I know it by now?

its called the bible and its all there in black and white.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Yes...because the car your drive and the belief systems you hold are so similar. One is obviously as influential in the way you conduct your life as the other. Congratulations...you've cracked the code.

its as about as dumb as saying that just because someone is a christian they, more than likely, must be a moron.

i've seen people love their "brand" so much as to get a nice blue oval tattooed somewhere, those same types seem to hate anyone who drives anything thats not their "brand" even taken it so far as to vandalize whats not theirs. so for many yes it is quite influential.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
No, science cant prove that we came around that way. But it can prove adaptaion. With adaptation comes evolution. With evolution comes just about everthing else.
Religious books cant prove anything either, by the way.

Havent we had this discussion already?

but how does adaptation prove much else but natural selection and perhaps evolution? there's a whole mess of stuff that happened well before evolution was even close to being part of the picture.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
I'm not trying to push it on anyone. Notice the frequent use of the pronouns "I" or "my", etc. I also believe that everyone needs to find their own thing, but fortunately "everyone" includes me so I'm simply describing my own observations and conclusions. See? Science can be fun.

so if anyone else made a thread like this from the point of view that religion is obviously true and 98% of those who believe other wise are morons. you wouldnt think they were pushing their beliefs on others?? for some reason i dont believe that.

somehow since you take the opposite view, you're somehow not pushing your beliefs?? incredible.

[GT40FIED]

Dude...of course I wouldn't expect a god to force your to believe in him/her/it. That's part of my point. If this god so loved you and wanted you to catch his/her/it's favor, would it not show the right way? Of course there are choices...and faith is one of them. But faith is meaningless without some evidence to back it up. What will happen to those of us who refuse to blindly follow a book written hundreds of years after it's main character's death by dozens of different people? Imagine if Whinnie The Pooh had actually lived hundreds of years ago and A.A. Milne just now decided to write about him (or her...I'm still undecided about Whinnie's sex..especially with Christopher Robbins in the picture)? Would you expect every girl and boy to believe? Forcing a choice of religion is like forcing a choice in politics...it can't be done. But if a god so loved us that he couldn't bare to have us anywhere but by it's side, why wouldn't it make sure we got there instead of filling our heads with thoughts of another eternity of torture and damnation? In catholicism there's a ritual called the last rites...my father himself received it before his death. But what if someone is not capable of repenting their sins as my father was in a semi-comatose state? He was a former priest so I'm sure he got wherever he was going intact...but what for the rest of us? If a god made us and expects us to believe, why all of the extra bullshit that comes with organized religion? If it's a test, fuck the test. I would not worship a prankster god whose favor rested on who could detect his tricks and who couldn't. Faith is achieved only for those who seek it. I for one seek proof rather than blind devotion and no god has undeniebly shown me that so far. In the event that occurs, I will attend church every day of my life. Until then, I'm not giving an inch.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
so if anyone else made a thread like this from the point of view that religion is obviously true and 98% of those who believe other wise are morons. you wouldnt think they were pushing their beliefs on others?? for some reason i dont believe that.

somehow since you take the opposite view, you're somehow not pushing your beliefs?? incredible.

It depends on how they worded it. Most religions people speak in absolutes. I'm merely stating my findings in the way I am most acustom...with logic and foresight. Much like politics, there are hundreds of different factions in religion, and everyone thinks they're right (perhaps this is why religion permeates politics to the point of diluting it). Don't like it? I don't particularly give a fuck. Once again this is purely my opinion. The fact that you take it so seriously is your own problem. Write your own opinion. I'll contradict it...but won't claim to be right...in much as I haven't claimed to be right in this thread. It's just a scientific analysis of my own observations. Whatever you believe...that's cool. I honestly don't care since I've made up my mind.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
its as about as dumb as saying that just because someone is a christian they, more than likely, must be a moron.

i've seen people love their "brand" so much as to get a nice blue oval tattooed somewhere, those same types seem to hate anyone who drives anything thats not their "brand" even taken it so far as to vandalize whats not theirs. so for many yes it is quite influential.

I'll do things the Az way now...take one quote after another and make a different post out of it. Way to use your UBB skills man.

Your reasoning is interesting...however wrong. Once again, I did not say "all christians are morons". Had you read half of anything I said you would have realized that. I have many upon many christian friends and family members who I would not label morons in the slightest. I do, howeevr, have one family member who's so far into fundamentalism that I refuse to speak to her.

As for your analysis of car a car owner's agenda...once again you've missed the mark. Tattoos and vandalism...while moronic...are nothing compared to wars and systematic killings (see: Crusades and Inquisitions). Face it man...your agrument is tired and obsolete. In no way can you call me wrong because I have solely stated my opinions. Your own opinions are yours to keep...but so are mine and by that token are not wrong. Let it go.

As for your comment about the bible being "in black and white", you couldn't be more wrong. Yes, please let me put my faith in a tome of ramblings written hundreds of years after all of the events in question by dozens of different people. The bible contradicts itself more time than I care to count and, if you even need more proof, is merely a book of parables about how to live your life that someone took literally and convinced other sheeple to take literally as well. If you need confirmation of that, look no further than Fred Phelp's www.godhatesfags.com. If you literally believe in the bible, then you believe what that fuck is spouting.

[AzCivic]

UBB uhh yeah is that computer nerd talk??

I said "more than likely" how does that translate into me saying "all"??

didnt we go through how the catholic church really f'd up everything for awhile leading to oddball crusades to convert everyone(and conviently take anything of value as well)?

most any contradictions are usually when one thing is told in the old testament and the contradiction comes in the new testament. the old testament is no longer valid when it comes to laws to go by, the teachings of the old testament were done away w/ and replaced by those in the new. gay people can do what they want, the new testament only has one mention of it being wrong, it also says the being drunk is wrong. does that mean, everyone who gets drunk will go to hell? i dont think so.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
It depends on how they worded it. Most religions people speak in absolutes. I'm merely stating my findings in the way I am most acustom...with logic and foresight. Much like politics, there are hundreds of different factions in religion, and everyone thinks they're right (perhaps this is why religion permeates politics to the point of diluting it). Don't like it? I don't particularly give a fuck. Once again this is purely my opinion. The fact that you take it so seriously is your own problem. Write your own opinion. I'll contradict it...but won't claim to be right...in much as I haven't claimed to be right in this thread. It's just a scientific analysis of my own observations. Whatever you believe...that's cool. I honestly don't care since I've made up my mind.

see that quote? you like them skills dont you?

how is responding to your findings w/ my own beliefs, taking things too seriously? you stated that god should have someone convince you to believe in him, but whenever anyone talks to you about it, it seems you listen w/ a closed mind. if your mind is made why make a thread about it? to convince others of your beliefs?(isnt that the same as pushing your belief?)

[pdiggitydogg]

Originally posted by AzCivic
but how does adaptation prove much else but natural selection and perhaps evolution? there's a whole mess of stuff that happened well before evolution was even close to being part of the picture.

Like I said before; once a cell forms, evolution begins.
Every trait that anything has was or is a mutation of something else.
No, I cant tell you HOW it all started. But the bible isnt much better in the details.

Alright, we can argue about it forever. Neither of us will change our minds about what we believe in. People have tried doing that to me for years.

Ive read the bible, Ive gone to church...I gave it a shot, and in the end I decided, "No". To me, its just too easy of an out. Nothing is explained, it just 'is'...I cant have that.
All religious texts were written by man...and then they were again re-written by another man...and another, and another. Even if you say Moses and the commandments, he was up in that mountain for days; which is enough time to pound out some commandments.

If you havent at least picked up a recent, up-to-date book on scientific origins of life, youre not giving it a fair chance. Even if you read it as fiction, you might enjoy it.

Gotta remember, lots of religions were thought to be wrong when they first started. Scientific origins arent really that old...

I know I get up on my high horse on it sometimes, but I really am pretty open minded about it and will give it fair chance for discussion.

[AzCivic]

true, true. the bible does leave alot thats unanswered, but theres nothing that says it can't be anwered with science. perhaps the real answer to this whole debate is the perfect combination of religion and science, figuring out that combination would be rather difficult however.

a group of people are doing just that though, here is their website that I used to frequent quite often: http://www.answersingenesis.org/?aig...=United+States

(go to the Q&A topics)

I have done the basic study of evolution and what not back in highschool nothing too indepth I must admit. if I can find the time, I'll pick up a more uptodate book, are there any you recommend?

[pdiggitydogg]

What gets me is those that try to disprove science, when science never tries to disprove religion. If science proved there was a god, no one would be upset. I find it entirely possible, that if there is a god, that evolution couldve been planned. (I just stress the word 'if' for myself)

Nah, I cant recommend a book. I did watch something really interesting on Nova 2 weeks ago...not that it helps. I havent even had time to do anything lately (school is crazy right now). After January I should have a chance to read more...

[ChrisCantSkate]

i read this not too long ago... goes along with the topic. its an interesting read even if you are a hardcore christan, although is dosnt support the church

The Grand Inquisitor by Dosteovsky

http://www.bigeye.com/broskara.htm

[Wren57]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Dude...of course I wouldn't expect a god to force your to believe in him/her/it. That's part of my point. If this god so loved you and wanted you to catch his/her/it's favor, would it not show the right way? Of course there are choices...and faith is one of them. But faith is meaningless without some evidence to back it up. What will happen to those of us who refuse to blindly follow a book written hundreds of years after it's main character's death by dozens of different people? Imagine if Whinnie The Pooh had actually lived hundreds of years ago and A.A. Milne just now decided to write about him (or her...I'm still undecided about Whinnie's sex..especially with Christopher Robbins in the picture)? Would you expect every girl and boy to believe? Forcing a choice of religion is like forcing a choice in politics...it can't be done. But if a god so loved us that he couldn't bare to have us anywhere but by it's side, why wouldn't it make sure we got there instead of filling our heads with thoughts of another eternity of torture and damnation? In catholicism there's a ritual called the last rites...my father himself received it before his death. But what if someone is not capable of repenting their sins as my father was in a semi-comatose state? He was a former priest so I'm sure he got wherever he was going intact...but what for the rest of us? If a god made us and expects us to believe, why all of the extra bullshit that comes with organized religion? If it's a test, fuck the test. I would not worship a prankster god whose favor rested on who could detect his tricks and who couldn't. Faith is achieved only for those who seek it. I for one seek proof rather than blind devotion and no god has undeniebly shown me that so far. In the event that occurs, I will attend church every day of my life. Until then, I'm not giving an inch.

Have fun in hell.

To quote Dogma;
"I've heard rant like this before. You know, you sound like the morning star. You aren't talking about going home, you are talking about war against God. Fuck that, I've seen what happens when people take on the throne."

One way or another, you will find out the truth when you die. Your attitude towards faith is a lose-lose one. If you die and you are correct there is no God, then that sucks. But if you are wrong about not believing in God or wanting forgiveness, you go to hell. BUT, if you believe in God, you either go to heaven or if there is no God, then nothing happens (win-lose). This is convincing at the very base primal level of religion (see preconvential development of psychology). Believe what you will, but don't dare try to disprove God simply because you can't prove him.

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by highlander
Have fun in hell.
One way or another, you will find out the truth when you die. Your attitude towards faith is a lose-lose one. If you die and you are correct there is no God, then that sucks.

yeah, if i die and find out there is no god it means i wasted this life for believing in stupid crap. it's not like i believe now and everytime i get to refute god i will.

[pdiggitydogg]

Originally posted by highlander
Have fun in hell.

Sorry, but thats exactly what I HATE about most religious (actually christian) people. Its always gotta come down to threats of damnation and eternal suffering. I'll never get why it has to be that way...

And dogma was a kickass movie

(one thing I just thought of: )
Only Christians would be "ballsy" enough to name a kid Christian. You never hear a person being named Muslim, or Jewish, Bhuddist, Hindu or whatever other religion you wanna pick.
"Hey, Jewish! Wanna go shoot some hoops after class?"

Kinda reminds me of the church taking money from people so they could get into heaven, back in the day. (along those same lines)

[Wren57]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
Sorry, but thats exactly what I HATE about most religious (actually christian) people. Its always gotta come down to threats of damnation and eternal suffering. I'll never get why it has to be that way...

I actually agree with you. Note where I cited preconventional thinking (a psychology term) to describe this. Steve doesn't understand faith at a high level (no offense), so I took the meaning and purpose of faith down to the very basic primal level (I also cited this). Higher reasoning failed, so I went with basic positive/negative reinforcement and punishment explanations in an attempt to explain on his level of understanding of faith.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by highlander
Have fun in hell.

To quote Dogma;
"I've heard rant like this before. You know, you sound like the morning star. You aren't talking about going home, you are talking about war against God. Fuck that, I've seen what happens when people take on the throne."

One way or another, you will find out the truth when you die. Your attitude towards faith is a lose-lose one. If you die and you are correct there is no God, then that sucks. But if you are wrong about not believing in God or wanting forgiveness, you go to hell. BUT, if you believe in God, you either go to heaven or if there is no God, then nothing happens (win-lose). This is convincing at the very base primal level of religion (see preconvential development of psychology). Believe what you will, but don't dare try to disprove God simply because you can't prove him.

Going to hell? Fuck dude...I'm piloting a rocket there. Still a few seats left if you're interested. And I'm not sure...but did you just compare me to Satan? I mean...the "morning star" is supposed to be Lucifer although he's never really refered to that way in the bible. I'm pretty far off from Satan. Neither am I talking about war on your god. Did I say ""god" should die!"? No. i just said I don't buy YOUR idea of a god. The last paragraph just looks like you're putting odds on the afterlife. How bout these odds...we die and all of that energy inside you gets turned into a sweet ass ghost that terrorizes little children for fun. That'd be so kick ass...win/win man.

[VR4_Craver]

I got it.....God/Budda/allah/ and every other "supreme being' Out there is so tired of people preaching that they are using the Hardcore fundamentalist so drive them all off. So then technically where are all being manipulated by someone! I am such a genius!

[mylittlecivic]

i dont want to get into this too much, but I will say most christians may read the bible but most of them dont understand it, the bible cleary states that it would be that way& that false teachings would be spread. I believe that hell & eternal damnation is a false teaching I believe God does not wish to treat his own creations that way, also that the devil is very real and that he controls this system we live in now. If you remember in the garden of eden he challenged gods solvriegnty (i cant spell tonight). Anyway the way things are the way they are is because Satan is saying that all people will turn away from god and live free of him but as we have seen through history that has not gotten man far, something greater is happening that most of the world choose not to notice, but if we choose -becuase we were created with free will- to serve god or follow satan then we will show whose side we are on.

[GT40FIED]

Well...ok...but why do we HAVE to follow anyone? If given free will, why would there be anyone to follow? That sort of thinking is counterintuitive. On one hand there's no hell, but on the other there's Satan. "God" gives us free will, but expects us to blindly follow a certain path that ends in unwavering belief. Sounds like "god" has us bent over a barrel and is getting ready to do us dry. All I want is for some undeniable and irrefutable proof. That's it. Surely an omnipresent diety could take time out in my years on this earth and show me without a shadow of a doubt that they either existed or allegiance to them is the only salvation from having demons poke my ass with tridents in a pit of fire. Perhaps I'm expecting too much? Surely "god" would know that I would have serious issues with a book written by men and without a chapter authored by it's main character. I mean shit...that book talks about "god" and jesus...like they're the same person. How the hell can you be your own son? Not even the people from "Deliverance" could make that happen.

[AzCivic]

you say you want god to show you undeniable proof that he exists, thats tough since most want a miracle of some sort or a visit from an angel.

for me however, just looking around this world we live in makes me believe there must have been a plan for all this, I think about all the tiny little things and the great big things that all seem to come together just perfect in this vast universe we live in. and it seems science is even proving it in a way as well, since they strive to find a theory that explains everything, i would think if everything is a random hobglob that it'd be impossible to come up w/ one, or even to form the very laws of nature/physics/math that we already have.

[GT40FIED]

See now I can understand that. I am one of those people who strive for proof. And I'm not asking for some miracle or angelic visitation...I just want to know once and for all if my time is wasted in a church or better suited doing other things. Sure, some people can look around and see an easy answer in the face of seeming impossibility...but I'd like proof of that greatness. I can't explain how...I just want something. I don't want to be told "well it's in this book so that's just the way it is". I want someone or something to tell me "this is how it is, and I can prove it". Most would say that their god is not here for my amusement or that it's too busy to tell me what it's up to, but if their god can monitor every single event of mankind all at once and produce a few miracles here and there at the same time, why can't it come to me and prove that it's love is the sole reason I should consider a given path? That doesn't seem to hard to accomplish for me. It's not just me...is it?

[AzCivic]

Hmm, have you ever attended a Chruch of Christ? I'm not saying that its THE church you have to go to, but they stay away from anything that isnt in the bible. Maybe just going and talking with the people there and going with an open mind, then thinking about what you heard/ learned could be enough. Maybe not, but its worth a shot.

I guess the reason its not as plain as day is if it were, than what would be the point? If everyone knew for a fact that God existed, because of some kind of great intervention in everyones life, than how would that be any different than creating a people(puppets) who's only thought was to worship him?