Engine Management Talk

[JDMFantasy2k]

Well i'm trying to learn as much as i can about honda engines and turbos because i've decided that eventually i'd like to A. Build my own engine (based on 2ndgenteg's ideas in the how-to forum) and B. Turbo it. So far i've found that Hondata is worshiped as the best engine tuning device to ever be created, but what are some (temporary) alternatives?

Basically, after i build an engine (or have work done to it) what do i need to make it run, and then eventually to turbo it.
I know this is a huge open ended question, but any input, or description on what some of you are running would be helpful so i can get an idea of what to do eventually.

Also i'm assuming dyno tuning is a must. Thing is, i know of a dyno facility, however i think they only do HP runs and not actual tuning. Would i be able to tune it myself using a dyno? well any help would be apprecieated.

[thermal]

There are a few Fuel Management systems out there. It is basically categorized into 3 systems or combinations of 2 or all three of them.

1) Mechanical management: these are the "boost dependent FMU's" which is the easiest to install and use. FMU stands for Fuel Management Unit. It is a rising rate fuel pressure regulator mounted after the fuel rail. It raises fuel pressure based on boost. The added fuel is proportiioned by the FMU disc size (8:1, 10:1, 12:1) for every amount of boost sensed by it. It is basically based on the concept to where it increases fuel pressure as boost is sense and compensates to it. All it really does is slow down the flow of unused/unburnt fuel from going back to the fuel tank. It hold the fuel on the fuel rail longer while at boost, therefore raising fuel pressure and ensures fuel on the injectors.
The disadvantages to this can be catasthrophic. All Honda fuel pumps are gear type-positive displacement, meaning it will push the right the same amount of fuel regardless. Since the FMU is holding fuel back while the fuel pump still push its rated capacity, it could possible and eventually wear out... a bad thing to happen while at boost or racing.
Another issue with FMU's is that a "boost transition" is always expected. Boost transition is the transition from N/A state to boost state. A well tuned turboed car should not have that. What happens is when the MAP reaches 1 psi, FMU will start doing its jump of adding fuel therefore the driver will fell a somewhat "sweet spot" on the REV range as the boost starts increasing. Why is this bad? Because it is not a gradual increase of fuel on the initial 1 psi...... Review these:
http://www.geocities.com/thermalfid16/BasicFuelSys.html
http://www.hstuners.com/forums/showt...threadid=17064
Remember tha a map check valve must be utilized to use an FMU set-up.....

2)Piggy back systems: These are some of the best choices out there just depending on the tunability of the unit. A piggy back system still uses the stock ECU as the main system. Hondata, GReddy emanage, Uberdata, turboedit, etc. are the most common ones on the road. Hondata is hands down the best in the market and probably the tuner friendliest of all (eventho it's still requires a trained muthafuka to tune it). A piggy back system modifies the inputs and outputs of the stock ECU. It is done in various ways, the common being: wire/sensor tap and programmed chip. ECU activities can be monitored through a PC/laptap of manufacturer's LED display. The concept is the same as stand alone systems but limitted in "some ways. Some piggy back systems can manipulate ignition, fuel, timing, injectors pulses, etc. during the tuning process.

3) Stand alone systems: AEM EMS, Accel DFI, Motec are some of the widely used systems around. These systems can be either plug and play or total removal of the stock wiring harness and/or components. It's tunability is topnotch but sometimes has functions that is really unnecesarryl for on a street set-up or even drag set-up. I'm not too familiar with the accel not motec systems, but I have seen the AEM EMS in action. It has some very in-depth tuning capabilities ranging from boost threshold, stand alone spark management, 3D and up engine monitor, up to 12 injector controls, blah blah blah.....

There are so much stuff that you have to consider when boosting on a decent fuel system. I have done them all except a full Stand Alone system, which I will never deal with unless I get unlimitted dyno time for free...... ha ha.

There are also systems that can control added injectors on the intake manifold or charged pipe like the Earl MF2.

Some people use a combination of an FMU and an AFC for fine tuning.

Some people use an AFC hack with larger injectors

Overall, if you just want a boosted car to go around with on low boost, an FMU set-up is ok... but I will still not recommend. The difference of running 10 psi, depending on the management is detrimental to much power you can gain. As an example, both using the GReddy kit:

-99civicEX stock internals @ 10 psi on VAFC hack/450cc injectors= 166whp/175tq
-00civicEX stock internals @ 10 psi on Hondata/440cc injectors= 221whp/191tq

The 99 civic is my car. The 00 civic in my buddy's car that I worked on. He made that power based on my recommendation to to get rid of the emanage and go Hondata. Granted his car is dyno tuned while mine is street tuned.

I hope I covered and clarified some stuff for you....... Peace!

[JDMFantasy2k]

wow i <3 you therms

thanks for the awesome write up, you covered most of my questions. My final question, is if i were to go with a greddy turbo set up, who would know how to tune the emanage? (or at least until i go hondata) Er, basically, does anybody know of any respectable shops anywhere in new england?

[thermal]

We used to have a md here named boosted3g. He worked at a shop in PA, but I'm not sure if he is till there and their ability to tune an emanage.

The GReddy kit emanage comes with a standard "flashed" or base program for your set-up that is already incorporated. So all you really have to do is install it and the car should run fine. SOHC VTEC 2NR has it and he says that it didnt give him problems. On the other, the 00EX I mentioned above wasnt so lucky. His emanage initially gave us problems. We sent it out to get reflashed, but same problem. It wouldnt idle the car right and constantly hesitating tripping all kinds of CEL. That is why I recommended 440cc and Hondata S200b. The wiring diagram GReddy provided is also fucked up. So be very careful..... The weird part is, about 90% of people I talked to during my research also had the same problems on their initial emanage on the D16 kit 19T kit. Search on www.turbod16.com and judge for yourself... he he.

As far as tuning the emanage, you can just take it to a shop and expect them to tune it. It requires some datalogging hardware/software to access the tuning ability of it. What other have done is get the GReddy profec-E01 boost controller which has a monitor compatible with emanage.

Goodluck mang....

[JDMFantasy2k]

ha i'd love to go hondata, only problem is $$$, i have none.

So after talking to some turbo savy friends, ( and researching homemadeturbo.com and looking at set-ups) i think i've decided that i'm going to take my time and piece together a custom set-up. (i'm pretty good at fabrication, and my step-dad has a huge garage full of tools). So basically i'm gonna just get it on and drivebale at like 2 psi, to get the feel of it, and then as i add parts (intercooler, injectors, fuel rail, fuel pump, etc) i'll eventually raise it.

[thermal]

You can go up to 5-6 psi without intercooling safely. 2 psi may not give you a noticable difference.... Goodluck with the custom turbo set-up. I've done a few. Let me know if you need help...