Electric Supercharger - Interest Poll

Hi all - I am currently working as a mechanical engineer for a company in the business of developing electric powered superchargers. I thought this would be a good place to poll the interest of possible consumers.

OK, I know Ebay is saturated with "electric superchargers" and it's all a big joke to everyone, but the reality is that this IS possible, if you have realistic expectations and good engineering. We have run these things for years on large turbodiesel engines for the purpose of reducing/eliminating turbo lag and have excellent results; the units have been used in several countries as pollution control devices in urban areas, and fitted on commercial fleets from garbage trucks to urban bus programs (frequent start/stop = high pollution while waiting for the turbo toget up on boost). We've also tested on small displacement engines and based on our old-technology compressors (much lower flow capacity than the units I'm working on now) we could make a 1.6L engine meet or exceed the performance of an equivalent 1.8L engine, with no sacrifices and better fuel economy. Additionally, I can tell you that just about EVERY turbocharger manufacturer is working on similar projects to create a workable electric assisted turbocharger. This is a very hot topic in automotive engineering right now, not just on Ebay!

I've also heard all the arguments - it takes too much power, the load will "bog" down the alternator, etc. Reality: the battery can provide enough power to operate a LARGE electric motor for 10-15 seconds, no problem. If high loads "bog" your alternator enough that you can feel it, you need to get your alternator checked. Once the current draw exceeds your alternator capacity, the battery takes over, and when the motor is switched off, the alternator recharges the battery at its leisure. An electric supercharger consumes about 50-75% as much power as your starter motor, and the starter motor does its job without the assistance of the alternator.

Like I said, you need to have realistic expectations. You will NOT increase peak HP or torque with an electric supercharger. Peak HP comes at or near redline, when your engine is consuming so much air that it would take a HUGE amount of power to compress it significantly. However, if the supercharger is optimized to create boost at low-mid RPM range, we believe it is possible to increase torque and HP in the 1000-4500 RPM range anywhere from 20-35% depending on the application. From 4500 RPM on up, the boost would taper off gradually to a 0% increase near redline. This is all projected for an engine from 1.6 to 2.0 liters in displacement. I'm bench testing these compressors right now, so I know for a fact the flow and boost is attainable, and I'm working on an integra install right now so we should be dyno testing in the next couple of weeks.

There have also been questions raised about intake restriction, and of course we have thought of that. The electric supercharger would be completely bypassed when it is either switched off or the compressor is incapable of flowing more than atmospheric pressure (like at high engine revs). In this state it will present no intake restriction.


The question is, would people be interested? My logic goes something like this: Most people in this hobby don't think twice about buying the typical I/H/E for anywhere from $500-1200 all together, and realistically gain very little torque, and perhaps 5-10 hp if they're lucky, by shifting the torque peak up a few hundred RPM. The next step is something like the JRSC or a turbo, where you'll usually spend $3000+ when all is said and done. What I'm proposing is a solution that can safely provide about 4.5 psi boost at low engine speeds, providing a torque curve very much like the JRSC up around 4500 RPM, and then blending off into the natural HP peak of the engine. For engines that are notoriously "peaky" like the Si, GSR/Type R, or the Toyota 2ZZ-GE (Celica/Matrix) I tend to think this would be very useful "low risk" solution for a daily-driven car, and installation should be a 1-2 hour job at most. We also would expect to seek CARB exemption (which we have previously attained for these superchargers in Diesel applications).

Now I'm just looking for feedback from enthusiasts like myself. My viewpoint is a little skewed since I've been in love with high-revving engines for years, and my current daily driver is a '96 Integra GSR with a B20/GSR turbo engine so I'm pretty well adjusted to making my power at high revs (although the B20 block does make the engine feel a lot happier down in the 3000 RPM range). Incidentally, I will also be pursuing applications of this same supercharger as a means to overcome any lag present in turbocharged setups.

I would just like to hear the viewpoint of others - is this a product you think you / your mom / other enthusiasts / the general public / kids with green tinted windows and huge spoilers / etc. would actually find useful? Please let me know - discuss in this thread or email me: mwillmon@boostingsystems.com

Thanks for taking the time to read my mini-novel here.

[2ndGenTeg]

Interesting. Personally, I'm curious how you're going to get it to spin fast enough to create 4.5 psi, electronically, and how you're going to install it without creating any parasitic effects in flow. Just switching it off or bypassing it will not be enough- anytime you place something in the intake tube or reroute it, you parasitically affect the flow. Finally, once it is time to make use of this device, how would you reroute or turn the system on without drastically and negatively affecting the flow at that time? I've got other questions, but those are my most pressing. It should be interesting.

To answer your question, though, I'd personally be very interested, if the price was right- no more than $1000. However, a 35% power through half of the rev range won't appeal to most people- the drag racing world and the auto cross world are both most concerned with top end power, the kind you get from a turbo or good cams. A 35% increase from 1-4.5K won't make any significant increases in an ET when we spend most of our time above 5K.

Regardless, I'm moving this thread to the high performance forum.

[delsolvtec]

I would be interested in seeing some dyno results from one of these. But there is no way you would catch me bolting one to my car.

Thanks for your input. To answer your questions, we are running these centrifugal compressors, like that on the compressor side of a turbo, at around 60,000 RPM. With that kind of speed and the compressor wheels we have designed, we are able to produce the 4.5 PSI at low flow. Some units we are in the process of testing have produced almost 5 PSI at 125 CFM with our electrical motors. Now to explain the bypass: The bypass we have used on an recent integra install was essentially a y pipe with a integrated check valve. When the unit it turned off the vacuum from the engine pulls the valve shut, due to wanting the path of least resistance, totally "bypassing" the compressor all toghether. On the integra install, we have tested the unit switched off and the bypass disabled and it lost 30 peak hp! I'll tell you that flat out. (Resistance and pressure loss) But with the bypass enabled there was ZERO net loss of HP. When it is time to make use of this device, the device turns on, builds pressure within 0.3 seconds and forces the bypass valve open blocking the regular intake and forces air to the engine. And of course when it shuts off the valve closes because of the path of least resistance again.

You are right. This product would not appeal to the drag racing world and auto cross for that matter since at 5K RPM the engine is requiring much more flow than the unit can deliver. This product is more suited for the daily driver or to cut out lag from turbos. To get out of the intersection.

Thanks again for your questions and concerns. We take a strong look at whatever we can here in order to improve these products.

[delsolvtec]

Do you have any pics or scans of dyno sheets to back up the horsepower claims? I'm sceptical as hell about these things.

[pdiggitydogg]

I first put a electric turbo post in the civic section of this site. since then I have talke to many people that bought these things (from ebay) and they all say these are a waste of money and time. Also...they're just boat bilge pumps. Orion Marina by my house sells them (the biggest that Ive seen) for $50. Theyre like 500cfm. Basically a leaf blower without a shunt to focus the air

[Addict]

Originally posted by mwillmon
at around 60,000 RPM.

Geez. What kind of amperage are you drawing there? I can see it now. "Shut off the A/C my electric supercharger is spooling"


Show me some hardcore facts. Till then, this idea is right inline with the rest of the eBay electric s/c's.

It all sounds good, but i personally want to see some dyno results.

Lots of questions need to be answer but most of all, it needs to be proven by an unbois company (third party). Not only Dyno tested but track tested. Also the dollar for HP radio should determine the valve, just compare with superchargers or turbo's. In regards to power band requirements (peek) delsolvtec said, is not correct, exspecially for road racing and auto-x.
You want lower RPM torque and HP for turns and curves, peek HP is not where its at, in fact your hitting peek for a very short time. my 2 cents.....

I would not even believe dyno results unless they were comming from my own car....I mean weve all seen the tornado thing on TV with its "proven" results...and yet I live in Houston here a dyno is not hard to come by and in most of these shops they have dyno sheets put up on the walls or in the back of different things...and in the real world...the tornado makes you LOSE hp and tq...dont believe the hype people!

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/blow.html

I don't think the market will really be there. These types of items are going to sell to enthusiasts. Very few "grandmothers" out there would bother with anything of the sort. My roomate never lifts the hood of her car. She adds gas and takes it to a shop for every oil change. She would never buy one. The majority of car owners out there are of this type.

So, this product will sell to those who want to add power to their car. A similar costing supercharger seems as though it will add much more power and add it longer than the one you propose.

So, now the market is mainly for someone with a turbo-charged car who wants to eliminate turbo-lag. That is a very small market. And it gets even smaller if you consider the amount of vehicles on the road that actually use turbo's large enough to create drastic enough lag to warrant spending an additional $1,000.

I think the idea is very noble. Its practially "free" power. There is energy just sitting there most of the time, so why don't we use it. Its a very noble idea. But, I just don't think it is very practical.