"Why should I swap my D series out?"

B16's Yuck!!! I hate B16's. Screw the B16, and get the B18B. Bottom line the B18 engines are a better starting block than a D series for power. It has a better aftermarket, more tunability, and stock to stock will handle more abuse. I do agree that its not to smart to go with a B16 if u have a perfectly healthy D16. No more displacement, no more torque (atleast not really, and the only reason is cuz of the cam), and u just spent all that money for a swap and its only a bit faster than the D16Z6 in the same car. I was eating up B16a CRX's with my D16Z6 hb with my bolt ons and weight reduction. Most of the B16 CRX's were only running 15.4's.

Originally posted by cashizslick
Then why does a stock civic SI beat up on ur car?

Just cause they displace the same doesnt mean anything - i still got 45hp on you. I mean seriously, the new Ford ****ass has what 150hp and 150 tq? By that rationale it should outperform my car in every way, but when i look in my rear view mirror, its back there with all the Dseries powered hondas - what is that about??

Really? Hmm.... Well my D powered HB was eating stock B16 powered Civic Si's alive. Not to mention I raced a Civic Si with the exact same bolt ons as me, (I/h/e). Lets put it this way. He lost! Although later in the night he got his car down to 14.9. Which was a tenth away from my best.

Originally posted by AzCivic
edit: sorry lost my temper.

here's the setup of the engines on the graph

d16y8, zex cam/springs, skunk2 IM, b16 TB, greddy 15g, FMIC, 290cc, 12psi.

b16, ctr cams, t3/to4E,FMIC, fmu, vafc, 440cc 12psi

I agree a little bit with Cash here. WTF was that person with the B16 thinking? CTR cam on boost? moron......

Originally posted by oc civic
im not sure if you are beign sarcastic or not.. but i have yet to see an 8sec honda on stock type suspension..

u said FWD suspension. U never said anything about stock.

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
u said FWD suspension. U never said anything about stock.

actualy i said streetable.. which discounted extremely rigid rear springs, wheelie bars, etc... things you would NOT normaly run on the street

Originally posted by oc civic
actualy i said streetable.. which discounted extremely rigid rear springs, wheelie bars, etc... things you would NOT normaly run on the street

depends on what u call streetable. My version would prolly be different from yours. One of my friends has 900 pound H and R drag springs in the rear of his Accord and that car is very streetable.

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
depends on what u call streetable. My version would prolly be different from yours. One of my friends has 900 pound H and R drag springs in the rear of his Accord and that car is very streetable.

ANYTHING is "streetable" but i think you know what i meant... there are not a ton of daily driven 8 sec hatches running around

[Shaved &/or Laid]

theres not a ton of 8 second anything running around

Originally posted by oc civic
ANYTHING is "streetable" but i think you know what i meant... there are not a ton of daily driven 8 sec hatches running around

no there are not. My point is that it is possible. Just when someone thinks that front wheel drives have gotten as fast as they are going to get, someone else proves them wrong. Five years ago people laughed at the thought of an 8 second hatchback (especially the domestic driving redneck imbreds). They said it wasn't impossible. Now here we are. Hell we have all-motor ones running low 10's. Thats impressive. Who knows what we will be running five years from now. Prolly pretty damn fast with the new K series.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Basically, there is not a big enough difference between the B18C and B16A to make it worth the extra $1.2K.

Basically, there is not a big enough difference between the B16A and D16 to make it worth the extra money.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

its not worth trying to make a honda blazing fast either, but we still try do it

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
I just re red this thread, and i see no proof of the impossible.

The D aint ment to be a performance motor where as the B is.

Lets put it in easy terms, if you get your D to make 170 crank hp (my stock hp rating) then the D is going to be working much harder than my motor will be to make the extra power - thus making it less reliable.

If thats not true, then i should swap in my old POS d16 and junk my B16

no a b16 is just more EFFICIENT at making power with 1.6ltr of displacement, more effiecient cause it has a higher compression and a better flowing head/cam. if my engine is making 170hp its burning the same amount of fuel as a b16 making 170hp. ALSO like i already said and some on this site have learned, a rebuilt motor with race ready forged internals is going to be more reliable than some engine from some car with some unkown amount of miles on it and unknown care history.

Once again i've proved you wrong, so stop repeating this argument.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
I agree a little bit with Cash here. WTF was that person with the B16 thinking? CTR cam on boost? moron......

why not? overlap can be tuned out for the most part on a DOHC engine with cam gears, can it not?

[ebpda9]

i am not too familiar with the d or the b series, but i see the b series as not being tuned at all from the performance POV, while i see the b16 pretty maxed out performance wise. So i see both engines maxing out at about the same hp numbers, only the d being cheaper to get there

[Shaved &/or Laid]

so youre saying the extra cam and a nuch better transmissiion is worthless.

Originally posted by AzCivic
why not? overlap can be tuned out for the most part on a DOHC engine with cam gears, can it not?

sure u can tune some overlap out, but not all. It just is not a good cam to boost on. U would do better with a GSR cam, or a turbo cam. One of my friends had a Prelude Type S with 7 pounds of boost (yes I know its a different car, but it is a high overlap cam like the CTR). With cam gears trying to get as much overlap out as possible. I believe he went -3 degrees on one side, and +3 degrees on the other cam (or something like that, I could talk to him if it really matters). Basically he pushed the cam timing as far as u can take it safely on a street engine. Dont get me wrong cam gears made a world of difference on the Type S cams but, then he changed out the cams for the H22A1 cam and it made a huge difference over the Type S cams once it was tuned with cam gears. I know they are not the same engines, but the results and ideas are similar. BTW he ran a best of 13.5 with slicks with 7 pounds of boost, and an exhaust.

Originally posted by AzCivic
no a b16 is just more EFFICIENT at making power with 1.6ltr of displacement, more effiecient cause it has a higher compression and a better flowing head/cam. if my engine is making 170hp its burning the same amount of fuel as a b16 making 170hp. ALSO like i already said and some on this site have learned, a rebuilt motor with race ready forged internals is going to be more reliable than some engine from some car with some unkown amount of miles on it and unknown care history.

Once again i've proved you wrong, so stop repeating this argument.

once again its about thermal efficiency....

[pdiggitydogg]

yes, overlap can be tuned out with gears...it'd be a good way to make even more power all the way to 9grand.
Problem again is all the tuning and playing with it that youd have to do on the dyno...
98spec ctr cams would be best - in 99 itr and ctr cams became the same

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
sure u can tune some overlap out, but not all. It just is not a good cam to boost on. U would do better with a GSR cam, or a turbo cam. One of my friends had a Prelude Type S with 7 pounds of boost (yes I know its a different car, but it is a high overlap cam like the CTR). With cam gears trying to get as much overlap out as possible. I believe he went -3 degrees on one side, and +3 degrees on the other cam (or something like that, I could talk to him if it really matters). Basically he pushed the cam timing as far as u can take it safely on a street engine. Dont get me wrong cam gears made a world of difference on the Type S cams but, then he changed out the cams for the H22A1 cam and it made a huge difference over the Type S cams once it was tuned with cam gears. I know they are not the same engines, but the results and ideas are similar. BTW he ran a best of 13.5 with slicks with 7 pounds of boost, and an exhaust.

i find it hard to believe going back to stock cams made a "huge difference", any dyno proof?

[AzCivic]

hmmm b16 power at no where near the price and no gamble:



bolt ons(including a skunk2 IM) and a cam

power was still rising at redline so with just an increase in the rev-limit and a test pipe 145wheel hp should be very easy, this is with the stock 9.2:1 compression

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

what hp does the SI baseline at??? i'm pretty sure the Y8 is approximately 107-109.. so according to the graph above the d's baseline compared to the b is not that far apart..

[AzCivic]

a b16 gets a stock dyno somewhere in the 130-140hp range. i think thats what your asking

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by AzCivic
a b16 gets a stock dyno somewhere in the 130-140hp range. i think thats what your asking

yup...generally i see stock SI baseline at 136HP i believe... so the B aren't that much ahead. if both engines are built up internally then i think the HP/TQ figures are up for grabs.. i don't really think one engine is superior over the other because its stock number is higher..... so basically anything can happen

Originally posted by AzCivic
i find it hard to believe going back to stock cams made a "huge difference", any dyno proof?

he never went to a stock cam. He went to a H22A1 cam. His stock cam was the Type S since it was a type S engine. hello! No I dont have any dynos. Dynos are not what matters its the fastest time down the track. Just ET's, well GTECH ones as far as that goes. The only real ET that he has was after the H22A1 cam was installed. That time he ran at the track I believe it was a 13.5. Ohh yeah that was about a year and a half ago. Not to mention I have driven the car and rode in it countless times. It seemed to make a difference to me anyways. I just dont believe u can tune ALL of the overlap out of a high overlap cam such as a CTR cam, or the Type S cam. Can u prove what u say?

ohh yeah btw your dyno graph proves nothing. That person with the CTR cam installed on boost could not even have cam gears, or he could not even have them tuned right. Truly u need more info for your graph. It is truly incomplete. I can get a turbod B18C1 to beat an turbod H22 on a damn dyno if wanted the GSR to win the test.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
he never went to a stock cam. He went to a H22A1 cam. His stock cam was the Type S since it was a type S engine. hello! No I dont have any dynos. Dynos are not what matters its the fastest time down the track. Just ET's, well GTECH ones as far as that goes. The only real ET that he has was after the H22A1 cam was installed. That time he ran at the track I believe it was a 13.5. Ohh yeah that was about a year and a half ago. Not to mention I have driven the car and rode in it countless times. It seemed to make a difference to me anyways. I just dont believe u can tune ALL of the overlap out of a high overlap cam such as a CTR cam, or the Type S cam. Can u prove what u say?

whatever you knew what i meant. and your wrong about the ET's being what really matters, those are dependant on traction/shifting and other bs, TRAP SPEED tells you if your making more power, as does a dyno(duh). for example: if you take .2 off you 60ft time due to a better launch/tires/whatever , you get a .4 off you 1/4mile time, the engine isnt making any more power, you just got a better launch. who says you have to tune out ALL the overlap, all you have to do is make sure its not excessive.

Originally posted by AzCivic
whatever you knew what i meant. and your wrong about the ET's being what really matters, those are dependant on traction/shifting and other bs, TRAP SPEED tells you if your making more power, as does a dyno(duh). for example: if you take .2 off you 60ft time due to a better launch/tires/whatever , you get a .4 off you 1/4mile time, the engine isnt making any more power, you just got a better launch. who says you have to tune out ALL the overlap, all you have to do is make sure its not excessive.

back to my earlier statement who cares about power OR trap speed if you still lose..

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
ohh yeah btw your dyno graph proves nothing. That person with the CTR cam installed on boost could not even have cam gears, or he could not even have them tuned right. Truly u need more info for your graph. It is truly incomplete. I can get a turbod B18C1 to beat an turbod H22 on a damn dyno if wanted the GSR to win the test.

ok i'll ask him and find out. the real point of even posting the dyno was to show cash how "streetable" a d16 is on boost, which by the looks of the graph the d16 is making a crap load of low end power on 12psi with the 15g, on a STOCK D16 bottom end.

i know why u posted it. And I agree with some of what u have said.

Originally posted by AzCivic
whatever you knew what i meant. and your wrong about the ET's being what really matters, those are dependant on traction/shifting and other bs, TRAP SPEED tells you if your making more power, as does a dyno(duh). for example: if you take .2 off you 60ft time due to a better launch/tires/whatever , you get a .4 off you 1/4mile time, the engine isnt making any more power, you just got a better launch. who says you have to tune out ALL the overlap, all you have to do is make sure its not excessive.

I know exactly what ET's consist of, and what the MPH mean. Unfotunately just cuz u make good power on the dyno it doesnt mean u will be fast. For instance the most power on a Dyno say for fuel tuning, and cam tuning may not necissarily be the fastest way down the strip. As a matter of fact alot of times it isnt. Many people who run their car find faster times changing tuning aspects of their car at the strip after it has been dyno tuned. Most people that I know dont change it drastically obviously (just small changes). This is especially true in American muscle cars. So I say again its about being faster down the strip, not what your car does on a piece of paper. Who really cares what a car dynos at. Its what the car can do!
well as far as the ET's goes the car wasnt changed other than the cam. It seemed to make a significant difference, to the butt dyno, and to the GTECH.

[esthirteen]

Hey B16 guys, take these numbers into consideration.....
http://www.turbod16.com/viewtopic.php?t=4140
These numbers are basically mild setups and they still don't cost as much as you have spent.

[pdiggitydogg]

I was trying to get that link forever........unfortunately turbod16 was down for a few days (when i needed it!)

[AzCivic]

oh yeah i forgot about this. i like the first one, a stock d16 block making 300hp with just the afc hack.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

you know what i like about the D is there's a million of 'em out there....one can be had for $300. with a mild turbo setup you can easily run 13s

BTW I think this dyno is a fake, http://www.turbod16.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=623

notice how the torque and horsepower curves dont appear to cross at 5252. It maybe just my eyes (it is very hard to read).

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

that link says i'm not authorized to access the page... but i think i know what your talkin' about though..

A lot safer, to swap in a B series, I'm imagining nothing could ever go wrong with this motor, its indestructible!!!

I have this thing with dollar to horsepower ratio.

I have to ask, who can really justify spending say $3000.00 for say 40hp gain??? Then gain modest amounts of hp through purchasing bolt ons that include I/H/E creating say a well respected 30hp more for another $1000.00??? (considering you do the swap for $3k and other work yourself)

$3k / 40hp = $75.00 per 1 horsepower --------------------swap
$1k / 30hp = $33.00 per 1 horsepower --------------------bolt ons

Now your out $4,000.00 and gained 70hp @ $57.00 per 1 horsepower -----not really a deal if you think about it.

Then say what everyone says: add a turbo to your B18c and you got mad horsepower.

$3k / 100hp = $30.00 per 1 horsepower -----------------turbo kit for B18c

Now your out $7k and gained 170hp @ $41.00 per 1 horsepower -------still not a deal, but hey you spent $7,000.00 and now have 300 crank horsepower or 255 wheel horsepower.

=============================================
Or keep your D/B series for example purposes I will use the D. Have 130chp or 105whp.

Spend $3,000.000 on a turbo kit and $1000.00 on an exhaust system, fuel pump, oil pump, water pump, fuel filter, new head bolts, and timing belt. (Considering you do the work yourself also)

Turbo kit gaining RELIABLE hp @ 205whp or an actual gain of 100hp
Exhaust bolt on gaining a respectable 10hp.

$3k / 100hp = $30.00 per 1 horsepower -------------turbo kit
$1k / 10hp = $100.00 per 1 horsepower -------------exhaust

Now your out $4k and gained 110hp @ $36.00 per 1 horsepower ------still no deal for $ to hp ratios. However, you spent $4,000.00 and now have 240chp or 210whp.

Now considering you are 80-100 # lighter with the D engine vs. the B engine this almost makes up for that 45whp that you don't gain saving you $3,000.00.

Or use that $3,000.00 to build your block and btm end and put a complete head job on giving you another 100hp. Making your $7,000.00 investment $33.00 per 1 horsepower still being reliable by adding a dual stage boost controller running 12psi daily and 18-20psi when you need it to kick the shit out of that modestly modded B series for the same cost factor.

Could someone justify this to me!!!!!!!!
==============================================

Then you get into the car down time which is a whole other story.

originally stated by ben: "here's the way I look at it... why push your d engine to give you every hp it'll give you when you can just swap it out with a b engine, not work the engine as hard and get the same hp! longer engine life if you swap."

A: true, well not really the same hp as I compared that out for you. But I'll do it again since you didnt quite catch it the first time: 160chp stock B16 + 70hp gain taking you to 230chp or 184whp on $4k. 130chp stock D16y8 + 100 + 10 gain taking you to 240chp or 192whp on the same $4k. Considering you are 80-100 # lighter with the D engine vs. the B engine and have a slight gain of 8 hp or the amount of a good I/H/E put on the B you will most likely kill the B in the end.
You have more hp and less weight, tell me again how exactly you plan to beat the D for the same cost factor...................
==============================================

again originally stated by ben: "yes but for that same 3k I would get a b18c1 (and yes, I see them sell for 3k all the time) I got 102hp in my eg so I'd get about a 83hp gain going with the gsr engine."


This is true, 83hp giving you a total of 185chp or 148whp. Wow, yeha, you gained modest horsepower for $3k. Lets do a comparison for you as well:

$3k / 83hp = $36.00 per 1 horsepower

add I/H/E spending another $1k and adding that same 30hp, giving you a total now of 215chp or 172whp on your B. Now your out the same $4k as my other comparison and $36.00 per 1 horsepower. You still SHOULD change the oil pump, water pump, timing belt, fuel filter with a swap spending another $600.00 taking you to $41.00 per 1 horsepower. This is all assuming you did the swap yourself!!! Did you??? If not I can figure that out for you to, about $800.00 for the entire swap, bringing your total to $5400.00 and changing your power to $ ratio to $48.00 per 1 horsepower.

or

D series stock w/ Turbo kit gaining RELIABLE hp @ 205whp or an actual gain of 100hp
Exhaust (along with all the necessarys) bolt on gaining a respectable 10hp.

==============================================

Or forget about getting the I/H/E as you already spent $3k on your motor swap gaining 83hp giving you this: $36.00 per 1 horsepower. Giving you civic now 180chp or 144whp.

Or comparing to the $3k spent on your B to the $3k spent on the D adding hp to 250chp and 200whp.

Now your B18c1 is @ 144whp and the D16y8 is @ 200whp................D power baby!!!
==============================================

I'll break that down for you:

$4k on the B18c1 gaining 113hp @ a cost of $36.00 per 1 horsepower; 215chp or 172whp
+80# weight gain

$4k on a D16y_ gaining 110hp @ a cost of $36.00 per 1 horsepower; 240chp or 210whp
no weight gain
==============================================

I guess I'm still confused as to where you justified swapping. Please explain..............

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

^^ now that's argument!!!

[Brit6]

i was actually debating the same thing over the weekend i already have a civic with a b16 that was already swaped from when i bought the car including i/h/e.

I was going to just sell this civic with the b16 or think about keeping it so i will probably keep it and just add the greddy turbo kit.

The other option is to just turbo the d16 engine...but since i already have a b16 i might as well just turbo it a little.

Originally posted by Brit6
i was actually debating the same thing over the weekend i already have a civic with a b16 that was already swaped from when i bought the car including i/h/e.

I was going to just sell this civic with the b16 or think about keeping it so i will probably keep it and just add the greddy turbo kit.

The other option is to just turbo the d16 engine...but since i already have a b16 i might as well just turbo it a little.

b16 is definately a better engine to turbo. If u already have the B16 in there, there is no point in putting the D16 back in there. Besides the B16 will handle more boost than a stock D will anyways. the D series will handle about 200 horsepower stock, and the B series engines will handle about 300 (a few exceptions to both obviously).