The Talon vs. 2000 Turbocharged Civic

[cougarsvt]

[=On my Mazda MX6 GT (Turbo) I have an ECU Chip, although it's not "double-sided" as I don't see how that would work seeings how there's usual only pins on one side to plug in to the circuit board.. But what it does is takes my fuel and boost cut away. Everything else is controller by my Holley FMU, and when I upgrade to a bigger turbo I will most likely get the Motec M4 Programmable ECU so I can run the bigger turbo on any boost I choose and if I want add some N20 as well. [/b][/quote]


Unless you get something like Greddy E-manage, chips will allways be the best way to tune your car( for under$400). Keep in mind the Greddy E-manage is $1200+....a chip with the same qualities is under $400. If your going to want to change your timing every day or week and change air/fuel everyday or week your better off getting the chip. Most companies will reflash your chip for very cheap if not free.
Ive never heard of ANYONE not chipping their car if they are serious about performance. Just not smart. All i have is the Apexi Boost controller and the chip.l

[cougarsvt]

I have no idea why you got me worked up enough to ask for someone else's knowledge about this since i already knew i was correct but...... check this out

http://www.fastcouger.com/forums/messagereview.cft?
catid=63&threadid=74784

By the way the guy explaining this is a owner of a turbo & S/C performance shop in Indiana. Doubt hes wrong!!

I guess now i can be the one to make fun of you all day(if i wanted). I dont claim to know all but my friend i know ALOT compared to your average joe.....at the same time i can see you have done some homework so im not bashing you just making a point.

An EMS (Engine Management System) and an FMU (Fuel Management Unit) will add fuel, and aren't just for boosting purposes, EMS does everything from Air Conditioning to A/F Boost Management.

Also, I can't get the Greddy E-Manage because the F2T (Engine in my Mazda MX6) runs on a very unusual volt pattern so the AEM Plug N Play, E-Manage are all out of the question. I am planning on getting the Motec M4 Programmable ECU via Laptop which is $2500, but well worth every penny if you are serious about performance and tuning... Hell it even has traction properties that you can alter!

I still don't see why we're arguing over n20, wet kits are just better in my opinion and to million of other forced inducted car owners who value their engines

[cougarsvt]

Hey now.... i did not say which was better....that wasnt the arguement

Him throwing out bs info was my arguement. Besides like he pointed out i misread anyways.Later

[cougarsvt]

[
Also, I can't get the Greddy E-Manage because the F2T (Engine in my Mazda MX6) runs on a very unusual volt pattern so the AEM Plug N Play, E-Manage are all out of the question. I am planning on getting the Motec M4 Programmable ECU via Laptop which is $2500, but well worth every penny if you are serious about performance and tuning... Hell it even has traction properties that you can alter!



Thats what Cougars owners thought until they looked into it a little closer. We had to change cords that hooked up to the PCM. Not saying E-manage is better, just saying maybe that is the same problem your dealing with.

cougar i guess we need to go through the actually chemistry on this don't we?

when combustion occurs, an air and fuel mixture is sparked and the oxygen and carbon and hydrogen in the gas and the air go through a chemical reaction which produces an explosion. if nitrous oxide (NO2, pay attention to the O2) is added into the combustion chamber, and there is an excess of oxygen (being that there is tons of O2 being added, and O2 having two oxygen particles which increases the mass of each atom), wouldn't it just make sense that more fuel would need to be added so most of the oxygen can combust with the fuel, or else when all the fuel is burnt up with oxygen with the stock fuel system, a ton of NO2 is just left behind in the cylinder?

there needs to be more fuel to compensate with the added NO2

chlorfil......more like boraville.....

Originally posted by Civickid0to60
chlorfil......more like boraville.....

huh?

[cougarsvt]

Originally posted by A_D
cougar i guess we need to go through the actually chemistry on this don't we?

when combustion occurs, an air and fuel mixture is sparked and the oxygen and carbon and hydrogen in the gas and the air go through a chemical reaction which produces an explosion. if nitrous oxide (NO2, pay attention to the O2) is added into the combustion chamber, and there is an excess of oxygen (being that there is tons of O2 being added, and O2 having two oxygen particles which increases the mass of each atom), wouldn't it just make sense that more fuel would need to be added so most of the oxygen can combust with the fuel, or else when all the fuel is burnt up with oxygen with the stock fuel system, a ton of NO2 is just left behind in the cylinder?

there needs to be more fuel to compensate with the added NO2

What are you talking about man? Who said i didnt understand the chemistry? Who said i didnt need more fuel? Are you just talking to impress? Read my sig brother, i have a huge amount of extra fuel...i never said i didnt need more fuel...i just said and a owner of a performance shop said there is NO WAY for the PCM to recognise Nitrous OR pressure rise! Im not sure why everyone here thinks i need a chemistry class...but that ok, more info for everyone.

[AzCivic]

you increase the pressure at the fuel rail.... the injectors open like they always do....now theres more pressure behind them so more fuel comes out... the computer doesnt need to know.

Originally posted by AzCivic
you increase the pressure at the fuel rail.... the injectors open like they always do....now theres more pressure behind them so more fuel comes out... the computer doesnt need to know.

you beat me to it.. the injectors ARE timed... and stay open the same cycle... but more pressure equals more fuel.. as you pointed out..

its funny how he believes "some random performance shop" but NOT nos or nitrous express.. what a dipshit.. lol

[cougarsvt]

Originally posted by oc civic
you beat me to it.. the injectors ARE timed... and stay open the same cycle... but more pressure equals more fuel.. as you pointed out..

its funny how he believes "some random performance shop" but NOT nos or nitrous express.. what a dipshit.. lol

Ok....like argueing with some 16 year old no-alls here. Last thing said....injectors are told to pulse a certain amount of time....they are NOT mechanical(like your saying they are)! End of story, let me know when you find this out down the raod when you blow motors because you stuck 8psi to your Honda motor but did nothing but put a fuel regulator on "thinking somehow" you can get that injector to pulse or in laymans terms "spray" more gas to compusate for boost. Better go tell Venom they dont need to make larger injectors because you have figured out how to get a stock injector to pulse 200cc's more by regulating the fuel pressure Im done here.

Oh i thought NX did not make a dry system for our car?

Yep..why believe a performance shop....sheesh what was i thinking!

Originally posted by cougarsvt


Oh i thought NX did not make a dry system for our car?

pics of yoru setup please... kit model number? im NOT doubting but im asking.. becasue i have not found an NX dry kit...

Originally posted by cougarsvt
injectors are told to pulse a certain amount of time

right dumb ass... adn if you open a hole with 80 psi behind it for two seconds you will get MORE through the hole than if you open the SAME hole for 2 seconds with 35 psi behind it.. why is that so hard for you to grasp...

Originally posted by cougarsvt
no-alls here

the word is KNOW

Main Entry: [1]no
Pronunciation: 'nO
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English nA, from ne not + A always; akin to Old Norse & Old High German ne not, Latin ne-, Greek nE- —more at AYE
Date: before 12th century
1 a : chiefly Scottish : NOT b : — used as a function word to express the negative of an alternative choice or possibility <shall we go out to dinner or no>
2 : in no respect or degree — used in comparisons
3 : not so — used to express negation, dissent, denial, or refusal <no, I'm not going>
4 : — used with a following adjective to imply a meaning expressed by the opposite positive statement <in no uncertain terms>
5 : — used as a function word to emphasize a following negative or to introduce a more emphatic, explicit, or comprehensive statement
6 : — used as an interjection to express surprise, doubt, or incredulity
7 : — used in combination with a verb to form a compound adjective <no-bake pie>


Main Entry: [1]know
Pronunciation: 'nO
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): knew /'nü also 'nyü/; known /'nOn/; know·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English cnAwan; akin to Old High German bichnAan to recognize, Latin gnoscere, noscere to come to know, Greek gignOskein
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of <importance of knowing oneself> (3) : to recognize the nature of : DISCERN b (1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of
2 a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b : to have a practical understanding of <knows how to write>
3 : archaic : to have sexual intercourse with
intransitive senses
1 : to have knowledge
2 : to be or become cognizant — sometimes used interjectionally with you especially as a filler in informal speech
- know·able /'nO-&-b&l/ adjective
- know·er /'nO(-&)r/ noun
- know from : to have knowledge of <didn't know from sibling rivalry —Penny Marshall>


its ok i KNOW you are a little slower than the rest of us... you will catch up...

Originally posted by cougarsvt
blow motors because you stuck 8psi to your Honda motor but did nothing but put a fuel regulator on "thinking somehow" you can get that injector to pulse or in laymans terms "spray" more gas to compusate for boost.

no dipshit.. boost and juice are differant.. on juice the fuel pressure rises to one solid amount.. on boost the fmu is boost dependant.. so you are not running around with 60psi of fuel at idle like if you buy a 10:1 fmu it will add 10 psi to every 1 pound of boost... but now im telling YOU about turbos... and thats something i know little about.. but i at LEAST understand how an fmu works..

be honest.. do you KNOW how a FMU increases fuel pressure.. wait.. i know the answer.. NO YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T or we would not be having this conversation

Originally posted by cougarsvt
Better go tell Venom they dont need to make larger injectors because you have figured out how to get a stock injector to pulse 200cc's more by regulating the fuel pressure

i NEVER once said there was not a point where teh stock injectors could become maxed and aftermarket ones WOULD be needed.. OH WAIT.. i ACTUALY SAID THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE... i said that there ARE cases where aftermarket higher flowing injectors are needed...

this thread is so ghey, i want my 5 minutes back.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by cougarsvt

Yep..why believe a performance shop....sheesh what was i thinking!

I wouldnt rely on a performance shop for all your info.

[nonovurbizniz]

cougar you're arguing a point that was never made...


wet kits are MUCH better... period there is no arguing it...

if you're arguement that stock injectors can't handle running BOTH the liquid gas and liquid nitrous... I believe in most wet kits they include injectors DESIGNED to run both at the proper volumes or have seperate injectors for the nitrous and the fuel... Hell even most dry kits have an extra FUEL injector that you place in the intake tube or near the tb... it dumps fuel in to compansate for the nitrous.

beyond that if it was a small shot they could... you see, the temperature drop that occurs with the conversion of liquid nitrous to nitrous gas usually gobbles up boost... in order to prevent this you need directport injection which our cars do not have... also most people running civics with turbos have already upgraded they're injectors...

one of the most common "junkyard" setups is dsm 400cc injectors with a VERY crude controller (smp)..

to clear up some more convusion you have conveyed...

A. honda's don't have MAF sensors they have MAP sensors...

you're MAF (Mass Air Flow) is FAR more accurate at detecting volume of air at a given temperature (it knows how many O molecules there are in normal air and it multiplies that by the volume that has passed by it.)
Our MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) is MORE than capable of reading boost... it's our ecu that won't do anything about it.. with the use of an in-between box you can change the signals so that it doesn't read the boost and the same fuel maps for non-boost work fine on the 400cc injectors as long as the ecu doesn't figure out they're 400cc not 200 or so.

B. CHIPS SUCK... if you think they're cool sweet... have fun living in the 80's... MJ rocks too.

Chips be they single or double sided... are lame... they do not change EVER they do not do anything more accurately. In most cases they just DUMP fuel and advance timing... I can do that on my own... Even if they are tuned well to YOUR car (not model your actuall car.) they lose all benifit once ANYTHING changes on your car... whether it be new parts or old ones not working like they did THAT DAY.

NO ONE would argue that a chip is better than a standalone or ecu modding device. There are TONS of manual devices which will benifit you more than a chip for purposes of fuel addition. and as far as timing advance... if you can't figure that out you're helpless.

C. Dry kits SUCK for boost... the introduction of the liquid nitrous into the HOT BOOSTED air causes temperature and therefore PRESSURE drop... it will evaporate off ALL the boost by the time it gets into the cylinder.

The whole point of running a wet system with boosted apps. is that it does not cause as much pressure drop.... It converts from a liquid to a gas IN the combustion chamber which is sealed preventing the same pressure drop that would occur in the intake tubes...

It's like increasing the volume of the chamber AFTER it's sealed by the valves through the expansion of the nitrous.

It is also so that the fuel and nitrous mix better decreasing chances of hotspots and running lean which both as I'm SURE you know lead to detonation... not a FI engine's friend.

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
cougar you're arguing a point that was never made...

i agree.. hes an idiot..

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
wet kits are MUCH better... period there is no arguing it...

i STILL agree

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
if you're arguement that stock injectors can't handle running BOTH the liquid gas and liquid nitrous...

absolutely NO disrespect.. but that is not how a wet kit works.. at all.. nitrous doesn't go through the injectors.. theres ONE exception that is NOT worth discusion..

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
I believe in most wet kits they include injectors DESIGNED to run both at the proper volumes or have seperate injectors for the nitrous and the fuel...

no a wet kit does not have injectors it has a solonoid... ive explained this before they are independant of the cars stock injectors

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
Hell even most dry kits have an extra FUEL injector that you place in the intake tube or near the tb... it dumps fuel in to compansate for the nitrous.

no they don't actualy..the dry kit uses the stock fuel system to add gas by pushing pressure on the cars regulator..

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
you need directport injection which our cars do not have...

what are you talking about here.. in a conversation about nitrous the phrase direct port injection refers to nitrous injection.. and as far as i know.. NO car comes plumbed for direct port.. lol

[Addict]

-----------WARNING-----------------
Watch the name calling. It won't be tolerated.
-----------WARNING-----------------

[nonovurbizniz]

I've seen a kit that added an injector at the intake tube... fuel injector...

I meant stock direct port fuel injection... It sprays directly into the closed cylinder so the boosted air comes in (adding it's benifits) then the fuel/nitrous comes into the sealed chamber (adding it's benifits).

that way there is NO pressure drop from the nitrous.

[Addict]

Originally posted by cougarsvt
Ok.....i have no clue how your Honda works my friend but giving a nozzel for fuel is NOT giving your motor more gas. I own a Ford and im almost sure 90% of other cars work the same way. Let me explain...ALL newer cars have fuel injectors and they are NOT mechanical...hince add all the fuel you want and only the amount that your PCM is programmed to tell your injectors to pulse is the amount that will be delivered to the motor. Thats why putting a fuel regulator on your car will not do crap without larger injectors. And even at that you must either chip your car or reprogram your Maf.

Adding a FPR will increase the fuel flow. It doesn't affect the pulse length but it does affect the amount of fuel going into the cylinders.
Hondas don't use MAFs like most domestics(and some imports). The only time we need to adjust and ECU settings is when we get up above 320cc(maybe 330) injectors.

Originally posted by cougarsvt
LOL...ok if your that hard up call Ford ...sheesh. Your PCM nor Maf will recognize the Nitrous....period!! Why do you think we have Mafs and PCM's...to control what happens to your motor. You can not physically change this unless you chip or FMU. Or your some freak show performance man that can talk your PCM into doing something different.

By the way double sided chips have to be physically removed then turned around and reinstalled.

Don't have an MAF. So this doesn't apply.

Originally posted by cougarsvt
Ok....like argueing with some 16 year old no-alls here. Last thing said....injectors are told to pulse a certain amount of time....they are NOT mechanical(like your saying they are)! End of story, let me know when you find this out down the raod when you blow motors because you stuck 8psi to your Honda motor but did nothing but put a fuel regulator on "thinking somehow" you can get that injector to pulse or in laymans terms "spray" more gas to compusate for boost. Better go tell Venom they dont need to make larger injectors because you have figured out how to get a stock injector to pulse 200cc's more by regulating the fuel pressure Im done here.

Oh i thought NX did not make a dry system for our car?

Yep..why believe a performance shop....sheesh what was i thinking!

The need for larger injectors comes up when you are overloading your stock ones. The stock injectors will only flow so much fuel between pulses. Once you exceed that amount(by raising the fuel pressure), you need to upgrade.
I actually wasn't aware that NX made any dry kits. Then again I could be wrong.
And it really depends on the performance shop that does the work. Some can be shady and not have a clue.

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
I've seen a kit that added an injector at the intake tube... fuel injector...

gotcha we were tossing around the word injector here.. its actualy just a nozzle.. MOST BASIC wet kits are like this..there is a nozzel that sprays nitrous AND gas... next up the ladder is a plate kit.. then direct port... and lower than all three is dry..

so

1. dry - sprays nitrous into the intake path and uses stock fuel system to add extra fuel... stock fueling system is normally more than adequate.. generally low HP gains ex: basic zex kit and nos 5120 series kits

2 basic wet: sprays nitous AND gas into intake tube does not rely on stock injectors or rail...fuel added through a fuel solonoid that is " T " fitted into the stock fuel line... medium HP gains ex: MOST NX kits im aware of

3: plate kit: very common on domestics, places a plate inbetween the intake or carb and the actual intake runner of the motor.. acts like a wet kit in that it sprays gas and nitrous, sometimes used in conjunction with an independant fuel system but normally with the stock system... avainable for SOME imports.. there is a new NOS variation available for gsr motors.. medium to high HP gains ex: lots of NOS kits...

4: direct port: there is at least one fuel and nitrous line PER cylinder can be " T " off fuel line but NORMALY independant fuel system used on many larger domestics mostly race applications.. known for near perfect nitrous and gas mixture.. used for NORMALY higher HP applications.. many companies make a direct port kit..

[cougarsvt]

LOL....ok

Originally posted by cougarsvt
LOL....ok

we are all still curious about the kit number and id still LOVE to see pics..

[ShEaNy]

wow....this is hilarous....

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
wow....this is hilarous....

Yes, it is....just as long as it stays civil...