No replacement for displacement is a crock!

I would also like to add.....that Lingenfelters Bad Azz Vette, is twin turbo'd. It's not all motor. Even he knows there is a limit to displacement.

I would love to take all these engines out of the cars and have them dyno'd. Take away the weight and material of the car, and just have the engine.

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by 00 Si
I would also like to add.....that Lingenfelters Bad Azz Vette, is twin turbo'd. It's not all motor. Even he knows there is a limit to displacement.

Not really... you can get almost whatever you want out of a NA motor. Whether it's streetable or not is the issue. They can get 900hp EASILY out of a 427.

Originally posted by 00 Si
..."There is a replacement for displacement, it's called technology"......

Going to be my new sig. Ya can't argue with that.

[ChrisCantSkate]

the weight of the car dosnt effect hp... these are all crank ratings also. what goes down to the wheels is different, and is effected by the transmition and other moving parts on the way to the wheels

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by 00 Si
Going to be my new sig. Ya can't argue with that.

Did I miss some kind of new technology that came out?

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by V8killimports
Did I miss some kind of new technology that came out?

i think tuned is a better word for that.

[ChrisCantSkate]

V-TECH!

[guywithastang]

All of this is pretty much true But think about this: A 4.0l V8 V-TECH

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by guywithastang
All of this is pretty much true But think about this: A 4.0l V8 V-TECH

well from what I hear vtec engines like high rpms like 4-7000... larger motors don't.. so that would not work out...

[2ndGenTeg]

Couldn't help but add my .02.

HP= (torque x RPM)/5252

If displacement (more or less) means torque, one replacement for displacement would be high revving.

Let's look at some numbers from, I dunno, say Mustangs versus Hondas.

Mustang V6- 3.8L- 190hp- 50 hp/L
GT- 4.6L- 260hp- 56.5 hp/L
Mach 1- 4.6L- 305hp- 66.3 hp/L
SVT Cobra- 4.6L- 390 hp- 84.8 hp/L

Integra GSR- 1.8L- 170hp- 94.4 hp/L
Civic SI- 1.6L- 160hp- 100 hp/L
RSX Type S- 2.0L- 200 hp- 100 hp/L
S2000- 2.0L- 240hp- 120 hp/L

The S2000 with its 9000RPM redline proves my point about the revs.

We also see some other interesting things here: The RSX Type S produces more power than a V6 Mustang from roughly half the displacement. The S2000, with 43% of the displacement of a V8 Mustang, produces 92% of the power.

So there must be a replacement for displacement, and Ford itself even seems to have found it. In the same 4.6L of engine, output jumps from 260hp in the GT to 390 in the SVT Cobra.

Now imagine if Ford could hit the kind of efficiency Honda can. If the smallest Mustang engine could make power like a Civic, it would be 380hp. Now imagine the 4.6L hitting the S2000's numbers- to the tune of 552hp.

[ford50forlife]

omfg teggy! DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY THAT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR R . I . C . E. motors FROM THE FACTORY COME WITH PERFORMANCE (hp wise) IN MIND????? V-8's ARE SLAPPED TOGETHER HIGHLY DETUNED FROM THE FACTORY!

TRY DO MAKE AN ALL MOTOR s2000 MOTOR I DARE YOU YOU CAN ONLY GET AS FAR A INTAKE EXHAUST IGNITION AND PULLIES i.e about 270hp AT THE MOTOR, mustangs come 225 stock (the ones that are GOOD anyway) and can be made to accept 373 hp normally aspirated and under 5K worth of work, or my setup for about 280hp motor for 500 bucks....
PLUS I DONT HAVE TO BRING MY CAR TO 5.6THOUSANDS RPM's to drive around town from lack of low end torque
god your ignorant. HP PER LITER HP PER LITER! btw HP for ford in the cobra supercharged jumped from 320to 390 not 260 to 390 because the its not the SAME 4.6L engine as you said, its a tuned version with the replacement of the heads for a DOHC instead of sohc. GAINS ARENT THAT NOMINAL BECAUSE YET AGAIN ITS MADE FROM THE FACTORY WITHOUT THE TUNING THAT HONDA DOES FROM THE FACTORY, THEY GO FREAKING NUTS TO GET hp numbers, ford doesnt plus the aftermarket potential is CHeaper than honda, more potent, and MUCH more vast, BUT THE ENTRANCE LEVEL price is higher IF we talking new cars/=.

I think you're sidetracking. The discussion wasn't intended to be about about your freakin' mustang vs econobox civics, it's about whether volume is the end-all-be-all of engine performance. As has been said, there's lots of ways to make power - build your engine bigger, spin it faster, increase the pressure, etc. In your car, the approach is to use a big, heavy engine - but clearly that's not the only way to make a practical, useful vehicle.

And - technology is absolutely a replacement for size. Compare the power/volume of older engines to the power/volume modern engines - even the stock 5.0 for a couple of mustang gens ago to the 4.6 that replaced (and makes more stock power).

[ShEaNy]

Technololgy

[ShEaNy]

lol just thought of something.....Twin Turbo V-8 in a Chevette hehehe that thing would move like hell...theres some displacement for ya...a car with less weight.......

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by ford50forlife
omfg teggy! DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY THAT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR R . I . C . E. motors FROM THE FACTORY COME WITH PERFORMANCE (hp wise) IN MIND????? V-8's ARE SLAPPED TOGETHER HIGHLY DETUNED FROM THE FACTORY!

TRY DO MAKE AN ALL MOTOR s2000 MOTOR I DARE YOU YOU CAN ONLY GET AS FAR A INTAKE EXHAUST IGNITION AND PULLIES i.e about 270hp AT THE MOTOR, mustangs come 225 stock (the ones that are GOOD anyway) and can be made to accept 373 hp normally aspirated and under 5K worth of work, or my setup for about 280hp motor for 500 bucks....
PLUS I DONT HAVE TO BRING MY CAR TO 5.6THOUSANDS RPM's to drive around town from lack of low end torque
god your ignorant. HP PER LITER HP PER LITER! btw HP for ford in the cobra supercharged jumped from 320to 390 not 260 to 390 because the its not the SAME 4.6L engine as you said, its a tuned version with the replacement of the heads for a DOHC instead of sohc. GAINS ARENT THAT NOMINAL BECAUSE YET AGAIN ITS MADE FROM THE FACTORY WITHOUT THE TUNING THAT HONDA DOES FROM THE FACTORY, THEY GO FREAKING NUTS TO GET hp numbers, ford doesnt plus the aftermarket potential is CHeaper than honda, more potent, and MUCH more vast, BUT THE ENTRANCE LEVEL price is higher IF we talking new cars/=.

heres some coffee, smell it.... dude, chill out. not ALL honda engines are tuned from the factory. mine wasnt, its the bottom of the line h22 engine. there is a tuned one form the factory also, but we already established that we are talking about STOCK engines. this is not an argument about tuned engines. i will not stand by honda making the best power import engines. if you want to say what engine has more potential, we can look at a 2jz-gte which is good for over 900hp on a stock bottom end. than engine is also highly detuned to 320hp in the USDM(united states domestic market). the rb26dett is HIGHLY de-tuned to 280ps (276hp) in the JDM(japanise domestic market). i think a super charger counts as a replacment for displacment also, it is a form of forced induction as is a turbo, but driven off a belt instead of exaust gas.

[ChrisCantSkate]

i just thought of something, hodna was bragging about thier 120hp per litre s2k engine... nissan did it a year earlyer in the s15 silvia, rev'ed 3000rpms lower to achive max hp, and got 10 more hp.

Specifications

S15 Silvia 99-



Horsepower: 250ps at 6000rpm Transmission: 6 Speed, Close Ratio

Injector size: 480cc/min

Turbo specs:

Compressor: T-28, 60 trim 60 mm BCI-1 compressor in T-04B housing

Turbine: Inco turbine wheel. Cast divider wall between turbine discharge and wastegate.

Center Section: Ball Bearing

[ebpda9]

and what was the size of their engine ?

[ChrisCantSkate]

sorry... 2.0 its the s15 sr20det

Originally posted by V8killimports
Did I miss some kind of new technology that came out?

No you were around but chose to ignore it. I notice you didn't comment on my Porsche/Lambo/Ferrari post. That alone, like I said in the post, shows you don't need big displacement to produce a lot of hp. I'm not saying you, but I notice that V8 people, some not all so calm down, only like to argue points that benift them. I'll argue any point. Don't matter to me. Not all people are like that I admit. But I just notice that when it comes down to it, a Porsche turbo motor (And I can't stand Porsche's so PLEASE don't think I'm argueing for them, OMG NO), 6 cyclinder at that, has a good 1/4 mile, good top speed, and hardly ANY displacement compared to a LS1 or LT1 or even the Viper.

Basically what I'm saying is this. Someone earlier said that Ferrari and all had invested millions to develop the Enzo. Which is true, everyone knows that. And look what came of it. 5988 cc / 365.4 cu in V12. Only 15 more cu in from an LT1. And it has 4 more cyclinders. 19 more cu in than the LS1.

I mean come on guys. I'm not saying I'm right by any means, I am just pointing out what I see here. For a V8 to have 350 but a V12 to have 365, something can't be right here if the saying is true.

[ChrisCantSkate]

since your bringing up the enzo, i'll add this, they invested all that money to develope a car that handles like no other also. it is basicaly a closed wheel F1 car. it ran 10 seconds faster than the McClaren f1 car on a track that currently slips my mind, but 20 seconds slower than a true formula one car. it has an onboard computer that will map out how hard you were pushing the car through each turn, it pulls 1.3xG's on the skid pad, and the engine compartment opens large enough to get a full f1 pit crew in there

[V8killimports]

ok the topic is no replacemet for displacement... I want a 500hp motor so where do I look? Do I look at 2.0L engines? 2.2L? 3.0? or 502ci? That is what we are talking about. And like I said before, those porsche/Enzo engines are not off the shelf out of a catalog stock. They are highly modified and tuned to put out that power.. and like I said earlier you can make a large ci motor like a 572ci to easily make 1000-1500hp depending on what you do... so even your theory backed up by supercars that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and developed for years can be shut down with an average gearhead with a summit catalog.

Originally posted by V8killimports
....larger motors don't.. so that would not work out...

I forgot to point out that this would be wrong to. It's just this way for American Cars. Ferrari F50, V12, Redline is 8500rpm.

Originally posted by V8killimports
ok the topic is no replacemet for displacement... I want a 500hp motor so where do I look? Do I look at 2.0L engines? 2.2L? 3.0? or 502ci? That is what we are talking about. And like I said before, those porsche/Enzo engines are not off the shelf out of a catalog stock. They are highly modified and tuned to put out that power.. and like I said earlier you can make a large ci motor like a 572ci to easily make 1000-1500hp depending on what you do... so even your theory backed up by supercars that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and developed for years can be shut down with an average gearhead with a summit catalog.

Umm, wrong again. Those 2 cars I pointed out you can buy as is. NO, I repeat NO, mods. NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA. They come like that. Sorry.


And as for the "you can make a large cu in motor", imagine if you did that to a Ferrari also. hmmmm, wonder who would win in that stand point. I mean a lot of muscle heads are know, if they lose to a turbo'd import or are argueing the fact, they ALWAYS say, well put a turbo on my V8 and who wins. Well, make the V12 a 572cu in and we'll see who wins. NOT the V8.

Thank you drive through.

[2ndGenTeg]

Originally posted by ford50forlife
omfg teggy! Blah, blah, blah...

First of all, calm down. I don't talk to you like that. I would appreciate the same respect and maturity from you.

Second, you completely missed the point. The point is that if there were no replacement for displacement, the increase in output would directly coincide with an increase in displacement, and every car would have the same specific output (power output per displacement).

This is clearly not the case. If there is no replacement for displacement, how would one explain the 130 hp jump from the 260hp V8 GT Mustang to the 390hp SVT (numbers taken directly from Ford, btw)? Also, notice how I said "the same 4.6L of engine" and not the same 4.6L engine." I was stating that the displacement is the same, not that the engines are identical.

Honda does the same thing, to an extent- they extract more power from less displacement- 1797cc and 170 hp from a GSR compared to 1854cc and 140 hp in an LS. If there is no replacement for displacement, how is this possible?

Remember, power is nothing more than the product of torque and RPM. Anything increasing either will create more power. Displacement increases torque, true enough, but so do many other things. Aggressive camshafts and boost both increase torque. Therefore, would these not be replacements for displacement? They do the same thing displacement does- increase the amount of a/f being processed.

Think about it- the ONLY way to increase power is to increase the amount of a/f being processed by the engine. Displacement is one way. Absolutely anything else that increases power- be it boost, cams, intake, exhaust, revving, TUNING (thank you for bringing that up!), or anything else- is another.

[ShEaNy]

amen to that^^.....but i would say this is going to be an arguement forever.. :o ... to the man with the most money wins....lol

2ndGenTeg......THANK YOU!!!

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by 00 Si
Umm, wrong again. Those 2 cars I pointed out you can buy as is. NO, I repeat NO, mods. NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA. They come like that. Sorry.


And as for the "you can make a large cu in motor", imagine if you did that to a Ferrari also. hmmmm, wonder who would win in that stand point. I mean a lot of muscle heads are know, if they lose to a turbo'd import or are argueing the fact, they ALWAYS say, well put a turbo on my V8 and who wins. Well, make the V12 a 572cu in and we'll see who wins. NOT the V8.

Thank you drive through.

You are very confused... these motors from ferarri and porsche are already modified at the FACTORY. So your zero, zilch etc etc crap doesn't fly.. if you think they are stock motors with nothing special then you need to do more research. You talk as if you are taking small displacement motors, doing nothing to them, and they are magically powerful... btw the Turbo Porsche means that it is turbo in case ya didn't know. So I will let you have your turbo porsche, and my SMALLBLOCK NA 383 still produces more power. If I put a centri blower on my motor with lets say 8019lbs of boost, I will make anywhere from 750-850hp. But like I said, my larger ci motor still makes more power than a turboed porsche motor.

[ChrisCantSkate]

a supercharger is a form of forced induction, as a turbo is, that is a replacment for displacment.

[Addict]

Originally posted by V8killimports
You are very confused... these motors from ferarri and porsche are already modified at the FACTORY.

So if its done at the factory and is shipped that way, does it not make it stock?

Originally posted by V8killimports
You are very confused... these motors from ferarri and porsche are already modified at the FACTORY. So your zero, zilch etc etc crap doesn't fly.. if you think they are stock motors with nothing special then you need to do more research. You talk as if you are taking small displacement motors, doing nothing to them, and they are magically powerful... btw the Turbo Porsche means that it is turbo in case ya didn't know. So I will let you have your turbo porsche, and my SMALLBLOCK NA 383 still produces more power. If I put a centri blower on my motor with lets say 8019lbs of boost, I will make anywhere from 750-850hp. But like I said, my larger ci motor still makes more power than a turboed porsche motor.

I'm confused???? The Enzo comes with that much hp bro. SORRY! What in the hell are you talking about that they are modded from the factory??????????????????????? Know your competition before you start going off about it. I know more about Ferrari than my own car. Ferrari is my fav car manufacturer. PERIOD. As is Shumie is my fav race car driver. Before you start to tell me about Ferrari, do your own research first. Just cause you have been proven wrong........don't say that they are modded because your losing a debate that you can't win. NO ONE, can win this debate. It's purely the person's opinion. PURELY!!. You believe one way and I believe the other. Plain as that.



Now a Ferrari F50 Bolide is modded. They take a factory F50 and mod that. The Enzo comes like that from Ferrari.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by V8killimports
You are very confused... these motors from ferarri and porsche are already modified at the FACTORY. So your zero, zilch etc etc crap doesn't fly.. if you think they are stock motors with nothing special then you need to do more research. You talk as if you are taking small displacement motors, doing nothing to them, and they are magically powerful... btw the Turbo Porsche means that it is turbo in case ya didn't know. So I will let you have your turbo porsche, and my SMALLBLOCK NA 383 still produces more power. If I put a centri blower on my motor with lets say 8019lbs of boost, I will make anywhere from 750-850hp. But like I said, my larger ci motor still makes more power than a turboed porsche motor.

you do realize that the ferrari is a naturaly aspirated motor? this isnt import vs. domestic its stock all motor vs stock forced induction

[V8killimports]

Oh wow look... 720hp from the GM factory:

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/Previews.html

And yes a supercharger is forced induction... my point was that the porsche motor and its "replacement for displacement" doesn't make the power my NA 383 does.. and that's a small ci motor.

I was saying that if you even it out with forced induction and supercharge mine I would have 750-850hp depending on boost and other variables.

As for the Enzo motor... it's the same size as mine, and there are plenty of motors that size that make that much power, and more...

[V8killimports]

lol I didn't mean 8019lbs boost.. I meant 8-10.. I have no idea how 8019 came out.

[V8killimports]

Here is something else....

The Ford LTD was first offered in 1965 as a "trimmed" up Galaxie with a few more options as standard equipment. The famed 289-2V was the base engine, and supplied adaquate, but not extreme power. Other engines included the 352, 390, which were FE blocks.
1966 was a glorious year for the LTD. The same engines were offered as in '65, but a couple new ones were added to the list for balls out performance. This LTD was called the 7-litre. I will have to update the file, because I'm not sure on the codes. I believe there was a Q-code engine, but I'm not sure if it was the cammer or the cobra-jet. At any rate, the new engines were both FE blocks and they displaced 427 and 428 cubic inches respectively. Most of these 7-litres were 428 cobra-jets and were pretty damn fast, but a few managed to get the street animal, which can put a Hemi to shame, The 427 cammer. The cammer in 8V form boasted 658 horsepower and was the most powerful production engine to ever come out of Detroit.

Here is the site:

http://ellerbruch.nmu.edu/cs255/gducheny/ducheny.html

And that is mid 60's technology making 2 less horsepower than the high tech enzo motor.

[Addict]

Originally posted by V8killimports
Oh wow look... 720hp from the GM factory:

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/Previews.html

And yes a supercharger is forced induction... my point was that the porsche motor and its "replacement for displacement" doesn't make the power my NA 383 does.. and that's a small ci motor.

I was saying that if you even it out with forced induction and supercharge mine I would have 750-850hp depending on boost and other variables.

As for the Enzo motor... it's the same size as mine, and there are plenty of motors that size that make that much power, and more...

Is it a production motor? Just wondering. It didn't say.

It sounds to me like there's a variety of arguments/discussions going on here. Some people seem to be talking merely about how much power output a given stock engine has, others are talking about handling and acceleration times, others are talking about how much power they can get out of a given engine, and some are just talking shit about nothing at all. These are all very different arguments.

First, if you want to talk stock motors, then you can't fairly compare engines that are and aren't street legal in the US. The US has a variety of emissions and efficiency laws in the US that must be met to be streetable, therefore putting different constraints on engine designs that are sold in and out of the country. Just compare the JDM and USDM motors from Honda and you'll see how they aren't fair comparisons. Regulations in the US have effects things such as timing, cam lobe shapes, cats, etc. Consequently, these all have an influence on the power of the car.

Second, if you want to talk stock motors, comparing motors from an engine such as some Ferarris to, say, a Mustang engine isn't really fair. Sure you can argue displacement all day if you want, but if you want to talk more about it then why not include F1 cars, or afterburning drag racers? To say a Ferrari engine is stock isn't really that fair either. The engine is, all things considered, a race engine. It isn't a stock motor by any means. The engine is highly engineered and highly tuned from the factory making it far from a normal stock motor that you find in a Civic or a Mustang. I'm not sure how much more power you could get out of the Ferarri motors sticking with an NA setup, but my guess is you won't get a whole lot more without upping the displacement. Comparing tuned-down stock engines to highly-tuned stock engines isn't a good comparison.

Third, if you want to debate cars with X amount of power and running Y times in 0-60 or something, you've got to consider that there are many factors that go into it. Sure one car may outrun a more powerful car in a drag race, but the lower powered car may weight less, may have stickier tires on it, may have a better transmission, etc etc etc. Acceleration is something that is dependent upon the car and the engine, not the engine alone. So if you're really trying to talk about high vs. low displacement, then you've got to compare apples to apples. HP doesn't have a linear relationship with drag times, therefore it is invalid to consider drag times in a HP discussion. But for all you out there, you can use your lack of HP to explain why you lost the race.

Fourth, if you want to talk about the power potential of an engine then a few ground rules must be laid out. Is it NA or FI? This changes things dramatically. You can always make a smaller FI engine more powerful than a larger NA motor. Take any NA motor and tune it to have as much power as possible, and I can take a smaller displacement motor and give it FI and make more power. Of course you may choose a 7.0L motor and I may take a 6.99L motor, but hey I've got less displacement, right? See that's the kind of crap people are talking about....it's meaningless. Liter for liter, technology will give one motor more power than another. But that's where the line ends. Take the same technology and apply it to two engines with different displacement, and the larger displacement will win, period.

See this whole discussion is totally meaningless. You can't say technology is allowed in one and not the other. Comparing a 4.6L Mustang GT to a 4.6L SVT Cobra clearly shows that the same displacement yields different powers. Obviously the SVT has a more highly tuned engine. Comparing a 2.3L Accord I4 to a 2.0L S2000 is again an unfair comparison, because the S2000 has a much more highly tuned engine than the Accord. Make the Accord I4 rev up to 9k and change a couple other things and that little 2.0L S2000 isn't going to keep up with it in power terms. Meaningless meaningless meaningless.

Ok, I'm tired of saying this is all just meaningless discussion and arguments. There is a replacement for displacement....brains. The intelligent person recognizes that there are very many factors that go into the power output of an engine, the handling of a car, and the acceleration of a car. He recognizes that he can tune his Civic SI motor to have significantly more power than stock and to have as much power as many larger displacement engines. However he also realizes that if he wanted more power than that, he'd maybe need a higher displacement engine. He can tune his high displacement engine to kick the crap out of the guy with the same car who hasn't tune it. Blah blah blah yackety schmackety.

No, I'm not a communications major, but sometimes I think the world would be better off if everybody was one. Some of the arguments on this thread sound like the same kind of crap people say about statistics. Statistics are meaningless without understandig things such as how the study was conducted, etc. Just like arguing displacement is meaningless without considering tuning and other factors.

Sorry it was so long. Sorry for the rant statements here and there. Deal.

b

Originally posted by ford50forlife
omfg teggy! DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY THAT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR R . I . C . E. motors FROM THE FACTORY COME WITH PERFORMANCE (hp wise) IN MIND????? V-8's ARE SLAPPED TOGETHER HIGHLY DETUNED FROM THE FACTORY!

TRY DO MAKE AN ALL MOTOR s2000 MOTOR I DARE YOU YOU CAN ONLY GET AS FAR A INTAKE EXHAUST IGNITION AND PULLIES i.e about 270hp AT THE MOTOR, mustangs come 225 stock (the ones that are GOOD anyway) and can be made to accept 373 hp normally aspirated and under 5K worth of work, or my setup for about 280hp motor for 500 bucks....
PLUS I DONT HAVE TO BRING MY CAR TO 5.6THOUSANDS RPM's to drive around town from lack of low end torque
god your ignorant. HP PER LITER HP PER LITER! btw HP for ford in the cobra supercharged jumped from 320to 390 not 260 to 390 because the its not the SAME 4.6L engine as you said, its a tuned version with the replacement of the heads for a DOHC instead of sohc. GAINS ARENT THAT NOMINAL BECAUSE YET AGAIN ITS MADE FROM THE FACTORY WITHOUT THE TUNING THAT HONDA DOES FROM THE FACTORY, THEY GO FREAKING NUTS TO GET hp numbers, ford doesnt plus the aftermarket potential is CHeaper than honda, more potent, and MUCH more vast, BUT THE ENTRANCE LEVEL price is higher IF we talking new cars/=.

ok i don't know if some one already mentioned this, but he has a point, not sure if you guys knew this, but the NEW, and OLDER, LS-1's and LT-1s from GM, in all Z28s, SS's, TAs, Firehawks, Formulas, the motors are not tunned all the way if that makes sence, there tunned, but they are DETUNED on purpose, you wann know why, look at a new C5 and a stock Z28........ok C5 is about 40-45K, new Z28 23-28K, if they did not dentune, the Z28 motor, you'd have stock Z28's beating C5's all day long, and so why would some one by a C5 when for alot cheaper you could by the same thing.....look at CRANK HP, Z28 puts out like is rated at 305( no weight of car invovled) look at a C5 ..345???? BOTH A STOCK LS1.....same motor, 346cid! a SS, WS6 is tunned more, plus ram air, and a few little things differnet they put out 325....so i don't know if that makes any point, i was just backing up what he said!

oh yeah another thing, not trying to start a fight, but who really gives a **** about hp/L??? yeah i give the S2000 props for that, but who is walking around with 500hp car saying, braging about HP/L? not many people are! some kid used to give me hell in my old highschool, about my car has this much hp/l i just told him to shut up!

Originally posted by FAST97WS6
oh yeah another thing, not trying to start a fight, but who really gives a **** about hp/L??? yeah i give the S2000 props for that, but who is walking around with 500hp car saying, braging about HP/L? not many people are! some kid used to give me hell in my old highschool, about my car has this much hp/l i just told him to shut up!

Obviously plenty of people give a **** about hp/L or else nobody would be mentioning it. I'm not sure if anybody is walking around with a 500hp car bragging about hp/L, but are they the only people who count? Why'd you tell him to shut up? Hp/L is a testament to the engineering and tuning that went into the engine, surely that counts for something. Whether it means you'll win at the strip or track is a different story, though. For efficiency, I must say I'm not impressed with the S2000's rated 26 mpg hwy since a buddy of mine gets 26-28 hwy in his 3.0 A4 with Quattro. But who cares, the S2000 has plenty of style and character.

As ridiculous as your quoted post was you do make a good point on the detuning. There are other reasons for detuning, though, such as cost. It is cheaper for a company to mass produce the same block and then just swap a few things here and there to give one car more power than the other. In shorts it's called "value added." A translation for the people who aren't as familiar with corporate terminology, value added is the basis of how to give or spend a little in order to justify charging a much higher premium.

How do they measure how much of an effect ram air makes? It won't make crap worth of difference on a dyno unless you shove a big blower in front of the thing to actually produce compression. That's another question, do the ram airs even work or are they just a marketing gimmick? Sure the engines may have more power, but is any of it a direct result of having a ram air? Does it pull any harder at high speeds than, say, a similar engine tuned to have the same power on a dyno in the same car?

b