Stay BACK ... I have a STICK, and I Dont know how to use it!

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks


hehehe I forgot I was suppose to shift ....

Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

That sounded cute.. Are you a little more comfy now with the manual tranny?

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Accord Man


Are you a little more comfy now with the manual tranny?

Yea !! I'm getting Better !! Cept in a Jam, I get all confused and just start throwing Gears around, while my car sits in the road and revs the engine. Today a Fire truck went by and I slowed down and pulled to the shoulder behind the guy in front of me, Well he comes to a stop before after the truck passed us, so I get back in the lane and tromp on the gas, (I'm in Fifth) Well I went absolutely nowhere so I Grinded some gears, eventually got it in 2nd and chirped some rubber on the way out.... the guy must of thought I was a loon!


Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Hehe, you'll get the hang of it though. When in a jam, just put in the clutch, think about what you're doing, shift to the right gear, and go. It will become really easy soon.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
think about what you're doing, .

THINK !?!?!?



Now Your Askin a Bit Much !!!

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks



Yea !! I'm getting Better !! Cept in a Jam, I get all confused and just start throwing Gears around, while my car sits in the road and revs the engine. Today a Fire truck went by and I slowed down and pulled to the shoulder behind the guy in front of me, Well he comes to a stop before after the truck passed us, so I get back in the lane and tromp on the gas, (I'm in Fifth) Well I went absolutely nowhere so I Grinded some gears, eventually got it in 2nd and chirped some rubber on the way out.... the guy must of thought I was a loon!


Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

LOL, that was funny...


Listen, 94_ACC is right.. You'll have to do some thinking if you want anything to happen..

Later when you're used to it, thinking will be lesser of a necessity.

I just learned how to drive a stick shift this year(i'm 23)....and while i still got my first experiences fresh in my mind, let me share with you the method that got me shifting like the folks in Fast and Furious movie........first, find some old country roads....preferably on a sunday afternoon.......go out there with a friend following you......next, TURN OFF the radio......listening to yer engine is the quickest way to know what is best for it and the smoothest/fastest acceleration.....screw the numbers and rpms(i tried every way to gauge that and it DON't werk!!!.....now, with your buddy behind you to simulate that "driving in traffic" feeling, practice takeoffs and stops....you'll get the hang of it faster and lose that "oh shit, i look like such a moron" on the road when u get the super huge shift lunges that look like your really a greenhorn!! have fun.....its not hard and....downshifting(altho fun) wears out yer clutch

As with upshifting, downshifting can wear out your clutch (along with myriad other components) if done incorrectly, but you can save wear on it by doing one of two things: the BEST for your car would be a double clutch, where you shift to neutral, rev the engine to the rpm appropriate for the gear your shifting to with your speed, then shift to the appropriate gear; just make sure you DO let the clutch out after moving to neutral. Not only does this save the clutch (since you're not burning it to rev the engine), but it also saves your syncs since they don't have to spin up your transmission. A less complicated but almost as effective solution is to just to rev up the engine between the gears. While this will still save the clutch, it will still put the downshifting wear on your syncs.

Just a thought

i don't know.....seems that double clutching might wear out yer pressure plate

Actually it SAVES wear on the preassure plate, as you're not using it to spin the engine up. The only thing actually getting more-than-average wear would be the throwout bearing, since it's getting two actions when it would normally get one.

http://www.planetee.com/planetee/ser...?ArticleID=755

Someone posted this link before. Thought it'd be a good time.
4jacks I don't have a sporty car, it's more of a big sedan!
And I know that's it's bad, and I tried tellin it to a friend but he wants to know why. Anyone know the technicallities of why it's bad shiftin in an auto

Anyway, who cares about the throwout bearing, it's only like $10 to buy from the dealer.
4Jacks, just don't get a lightweight flywheel until your better with the clutch or you'll be bouncing the tach off the rev limiter trying to get it rolling and double clutching!

I have been driving stick for 3 years now, have had lightweight flywheel for a year and a half, and I still sometimes rev a little too high getting my car rolling when I'm not really paying attention or blasting the tunes!
Good luck 4Jacks, you'll get the hang of it, it took me 3 weeks of stalling constantly in my baby before it finally clicked!

[4jacks]

Hey!! have i taken the record for the newbie forum w/ the most replies yet ?????


Thanks all for all the technical stuff w/ the flywheel and the Pulleys and the light thinga ma bob..... But I think i wont start double shifting till i understand it... and that could be a long time! Right now i'm still wondering if the rpm's is directly porportinal to the road speed, and if so is it the gear that makes that portportion ..... but that leaves me wondering what happens going up and down a hill.....



Thanks Again
Patrick
4jacks

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Yes, at a certain speed, in a certain gear, you'll be at the same RPMs.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
Yes, at a certain speed, in a certain gear, you'll be at the same RPMs.

Ah Ha! I new It ... Ok here's a Complicated One!!

Since, Burning Gas involves the Engine's Rpm's, Won't you save gas, if every time, you know your going to coast or brake or downshift, for a good distance, (like slowing down for a turn) You Put the Car in Neutral ???? Huh Huh ??? I'm thinkin that has got to work !!

And I'm looking into the most replies for the Newbie forum... I've got to have taken the Cake

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by 4jacks


Ah Ha! I new It ... Ok here's a Complicated One!!

Since, Burning Gas involves the Engine's Rpm's, Won't you save gas, if every time, you know your going to coast or brake or downshift, for a good distance, (like slowing down for a turn) You Put the Car in Neutral ???? Huh Huh ??? I'm thinkin that has got to work !!

And I'm looking into the most replies for the Newbie forum... I've got to have taken the Cake

If you are in neutral, you burn less gas than in higher RPMs. Cons to that is that you will put more wear on your brakes since the engine isn't helping you slow down.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX


If you are in neutral, you burn less gas than in higher RPMs. Cons to that is that you will put more wear on your brakes since the engine isn't helping you slow down.

DOUBLE Ah HA !!!

I've prepaid for some Maintence Program at Honda and their Going to replace my Brake Pads and Rotors after They Wear, But I have to Wear em out in three Years! So I'll Jam on them brakes and save the gas !

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by 4jacks



DOUBLE Ah HA !!!

I've prepaid for some Maintence Program at Honda and their Going to replace my Brake Pads and Rotors after They Wear, But I have to Wear em out in three Years! So I'll Jam on them brakes and save the gas !

If that's how you want to do it, go for it Just remember to put it in neutral, don't just depress the clutch.

oh lord... "depress"? 94_accord_ex is getting techmanualish on us. jfwy.

[4jacks]

My clutch is Very Happy

Not Depressed

[Accord Man]

The burning more gas at higher rpm theory is tru during acceleration.. When decelerating (downshift), the high rpm is due to quicker rotation of wheels in relation to the gear you're in..

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Accord Man
The burning more gas at higher rpm theory is tru during acceleration.. When decelerating (downshift), the high rpm is due to quicker rotation of wheels in relation to the gear you're in..

But doesn't the engine still need to draw more gasoline to mantain the higher rpm's ... even though I'm not pressing on the gas, wouldn't an engine running 3500 rpms without the gas pedal, burn more gas than running at 1500 rpms, once again without the gas pedal????

And is it Ok to keep the clutch in? ? ? I have a funny habit of just keeping the clutch in all the time.. Like I'll wanna Slow down to turn, I'll put the clutch in, Put car in nuetral (keep clutch in) brake for the turn (clutch still in) make the turn (clutch still in) Pick new gear (clutch still in) and then I'll press gas and let go clutch at same time ???

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks


But doesn't the engine still need to draw more gasoline to mantain the higher rpm's ... even though I'm not pressing on the gas, wouldn't an engine running 3500 rpms without the gas pedal, burn more gas than running at 1500 rpms, once again without the gas pedal????

And is it Ok to keep the clutch in? ? ? I have a funny habit of just keeping the clutch in all the time.. Like I'll wanna Slow down to turn, I'll put the clutch in, Put car in nuetral (keep clutch in) brake for the turn (clutch still in) make the turn (clutch still in) Pick new gear (clutch still in) and then I'll press gas and let go clutch at same time ???

Dude, think about it for a second, why would you need gas to raise the rpms, when the inertia of the car in relation to the bigger gear (lower -- downshit), would have that same effect.

Here's an example, a wheel with a 9cm diameter is spinning , 360° rotations, spins at 9X. Another wheel, 6cm, is geared (attached) to the bigger one, however the smaller one rotates at 6X to accomplish the same 360°. Now a huge wheel, 12cm, rotates at 12X to achieve the 360° rotation.. In this example, bigger wheels symbolize lower gears, like in most gearing systems.

Were you able to catch any of it??


If you keep the clutch completely in, without in and out motion, its fine.. Thats pretty much how I drive..

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're saying that rpm's raised by inertia don't use more gas than lower rpm's, you're incorrect Every time that spark plug...uh, sparks...it ignites the air-fuel mixture in the cyl and burns it, no matter how the engine got to that rpm. Leaving the engine in a gear that sustains substantially high rpm's is only practical when ascending/descending a steep grade, the latter more for brakes than anything else.

[Accord Man]

If I'm wrong, I apologize. But are you sure about what you're saying?


You're correct when you say that every time the spark plug does its thing, most of the mixture is burned. But what determines gas consumption is the amount of fuel in the chamber. What makes you say that there is more fuel in the cylinder? You're foot is totally off the accelerator.. And there is not outboard device that suggets to raise fuel delivery.

Thus, I'm quiet certain the higher rev is due to inertia.
The force that raises the rpm is from the camshaft that rotates faster, and dispatches the pistons with greater velocity. There's your rpm raise..



Do you still think my apprehension of the matter is incorrect?

I do, because though the rpm isn't raised by opening the throttle, higher rpm's burn the fuel in the chamber more *often* than at a lower rpm. Though it may be true that the fuel in the chamber is not as rich as when accelerating, a high rpm on an idle throttle will burn fuel faster than idle rpm at idle throttle.

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by MacRulzMan
I do, because though the rpm isn't raised by opening the throttle, higher rpm's burn the fuel in the chamber more *often* than at a lower rpm. Though it may be true that the fuel in the chamber is not as rich as when accelerating, a high rpm on an idle throttle will burn fuel faster than idle rpm at idle throttle.

Explain how more fuel can be burned, when there isnt more beeing released...?

ACCORDing to your theory, if I'm rolling down a steep hill in a given gear, using the gear to slow down my car, the higher rpm would result in more fuel consumption.


Nope that DOES NOT work.

Yes, it does; there IS more fuel being released because the engine is forcing the throttle body open wider to allow the amount of fuel necessary to ignite the fuel in the chamber and refil it. If no more fuel were released (and your idle was set at the appropriately low level) then the engine would die, as the air-fuel mixture would be so light that there would not be enough fuel to ignite.

[Accord Man]

Ok this isnt going anywhere..

I'll ask the G O D S tonight.. Then I'll know the absolute truth.

I think that Macrulsman is right because if no gas is being ignited then the engine would die. And if you are burnig a small amout of fuel at a 100 times a second(6000rpm) then thats a whole lot more fuel then 8.3 ignitions per second(500rpm). And this is just a guess but I bet the amount of fuel is exactly the same as when its ideling then when its tryning to get down to idle when you down shift.

**ding ding** good fight fellas back to your corners

[4jacks]

THIS IS GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I bet a better thread has never been started !!

Accord Man, I understand Your examples with the gears, but I belive you worded it incorrectly "however the smaller one rotates at 6X to accomplish the same 360°"
360 degrees (how'd you get the degree symbol)... 360 degrees is 360 degrees no matter what gear it is, but your trying to say that if you roll a quarter 360 degrees it's going go farther than a dime rolled 360 degrees.

My train of thought was not in comparing gears to each other but to comparing the state of being in gear without acceleration, and being in nuetral coasting. When your in gear, even 5th and coasting at 60mph my rpms are around 2250, at the same speed in neautral rpms are at 1000.

I'm under the assumption that EVERY Revelotion of the engine (providing no acceleration) burns the SAME amount of gas, the gas mixes w/ air to fill the 1.6 liters and goes through the exhaust cycle. Hence Higher Rpms more gas burned over a given time. I may be wrong about that! but that's my logic into it. Granted if you press the gas pedal, the throttle will open wider and increase that gas mixture, but when the gas is not pressed I can not see how the gas mixture would change, just from being in a gear.

And who are the G O D S ???

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks
THIS IS GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I bet a better thread has never been started !!

Accord Man, I understand Your examples with the gears, but I belive you worded it incorrectly "however the smaller one rotates at 6X to accomplish the same 360°"
360 degrees (how'd you get the degree symbol)... 360 degrees is 360 degrees no matter what gear it is, but your trying to say that if you roll a quarter 360 degrees it's going go farther than a dime rolled 360 degrees.

humm, thats what I thought I said..

I still didnt have time to verify about the burning more gas thingy.. I'll see them this weekend.. You know.. the G O D S..
If Mac isnt right about the throtle body opening, then I'm gonna be pretty ..


To do the ° I use the ASCII code. *hold down the ALT key, and type 0176, release the ALT key*.. it will work for sure! Oh and dont use ALT CAR ..

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Accord Man


humm, thats what I thought I said..

I still didnt have time to verify about the burning more gas thingy.. I'll see them this weekend.. You know.. the G O D S..
If Mac isnt right about the throtle body opening, then I'm gonna be pretty ..


To do the ° I use the ASCII code. *hold down the ALT key, and type 0176, release the ALT key*.. it will work for sure! Oh and dont use ALT CAR ..

° Heheh YEA !!
That means this works =þ
HAHAH I love this Place
Look we got new Smiley's <------- this guys cool
We still need some animation to the Barf dude ! well ...maybe not...
And the Hmmmmm.... guy <---- He needs to be more inquisitive looking !!!

And gosh Darnit where's the =þ guy !!!!!!

Thats it I'm going to the Complaint forum and demanding a =þ guy !!!

And I still have no clue who the GODS are ??

[Accord Man]

Ya this dude , needs to be doing something..


GODS = 2 people I know who are mechanical engineers.. One works for Orion's Race Motor development (Indy cars).


They should be able to feed me theory I lack.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by Accord Man
Ya this dude , needs to be doing something..


GODS = 2 people I know who are mechanical engineers.. One works for Orion's Race Motor development (Indy cars).


They should be able to feed me the theory I lack.

Yeah, I'd say so. I'd like to hear whatever you find out on the subject. You both make good points, and I'd like to see it resolved.

[4jacks]

Yes ! I'm loving this place

Really, I'm an engineering Major! All this is really beyond me, I'm still learning Force F creates Moment M abot point C kinda stuff, just fininshed up Calc 3. I bet I could ask my professor , but he'd have to sit their and draw out the car's engine and calculate all the forces, It would take him five minutes, AHAHA I just saw the "get more" button ! ... Anyhow lemme know what you find Out, Cuase my driving still sucks.

well now... this thread has developed very nicely and i havent even read it in a while.

i basically just skim read the last 40 posts or so i think the debate is whether going downhill burns more gas or not.

think of it this way. when you are driving normally the rpm's go up as you speed up going downhill, even if you arent pushing the pedal. if you take the car out of gear what happens?? the car returns to idle even as the speed increases. therefore i deduce that the engine's rpms are only increasing due to the wheels speeding up which are hooked to the trans which is in gear and is connected to the engine. this is also why you can use engine braking.

Originally posted by Maxvla
well now... this thread has developed very nicely and i havent even read it in a while.

i basically just skim read the last 40 posts or so i think the debate is whether going downhill burns more gas or not.

think of it this way. when you are driving normally the rpm's go up as you speed up going downhill, even if you arent pushing the pedal. if you take the car out of gear what happens?? the car returns to idle even as the speed increases. therefore i deduce that the engine's rpms are only increasing due to the wheels speeding up which are hooked to the trans which is in gear and is connected to the engine. this is also why you can use engine braking.

I'm not arguing against that. You're talking about the CAUSE, I'm talking about the EFFECT.

Everyone agrees that the cause of the rise in rpm is the fact that the momentum of the car (combined with gravity when going downhill) causes both the engine of the car to speed up and the car itself to slow down. However, there are two viewpoints on the EFFECT, one is that the fact that, since the gas pedal is not being depressed, there can be no more fuel being delivered to the chamber than what the idle would deliver, the other is that the rpm's are linked to fuel consumption.

The former argument is logically flawed. The fact of the matter is that there is a certain minimum amount of air/fuel mixture that MUST be present in the chamber to fire. Anything less would not ginite and you would lose that cylinder, etc etc. Your engine is basically a glorified, FREAKING BIG air pump. When the piston hits the bottom, a vacuum is created at the top, which is how air/fuel is drawn from the valves. The more often the piston creates this vacuum (read: the higher the rpm) the more powerful the force is that is sucking the mixture through the throttle body, which opens it wider than idle. The only difference between this situation and when you depress the gas pedal is WHY the throttle body opens: when using engine braking, it opens because more air is being sucked through it. When you depress the pedal YOU are opening the throttle. It makes no difference HOW, just the fact that it is being opened means that more fuel is beind delivered, which means greater consumption.

You must also condier the fact that the engine is applying force to the vehicle during engine braking. When going downhill in a high gear, the force being applied is minimal if it's there at all. When going in a low gear, the force is great, which is shown by the fact that the vehicle slows down. You simply cannot apply force without energy, and that energy is converted from chemical to mechanical by way of combustion. The chemical energy comes form the burning of fuel, which has to be present to exert the force. It cannot simply be drawn from thin air.

But the ultimate test is this: drive one tank where you do all engine braking, then drive a tank when you do NO engine braking. While both extremes are unlikely in the real world (as everyone will do SOME of both) the test will show which one will yeild better gas mileage (and by virtue of that, which method consumes less gas).

If you want to engine brake, that's fine; it's not going to kill you and I do it too; just don't tell me that you're getting the same milage as someone who makes proper use of the equipment put there for the specific purpose of slowing down and stopping: the brakes

i only engine brake when its icy.

edit... sheet of ice rather.
2nd gear only. not enough torque to break the wheels loose and enough engine braking to maintain control.

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by Maxvla
i only engine brake when its icy.

edit... sheet of ice rather.
2nd gear only. not enough torque to break the wheels loose and enough engine braking to maintain control.

Hey! Stay outta this! j/k


Nuh but seriously, Mac's theroy does make sense.. I just need to find out what/which component dtermines fuel flow.


My questions will be answered tonight.

Well, guess it's my turn. I only read the 1st page of posts, & got kinda impatient so I don't know what all the rest of the threads are about.

Here's my answer to the original question.

Welcome to the board man. This is the tecnique I used when I was learning to ride a moto soo many years ago. It applies to cars pretty well too.

First thing.... Don't pay ANY ATTENTION to the tach. I know that sounds backwards, but instead of using the clock as a tool to tell you when to shift, use your ASS as the primary tool. Learn to feel the car before you learn to read it pretty much.

From a stop:
Without even TOUCHING the gas let the clutch out to where you can feel it engage & get used to that point of pedal travel. From that point progressivly let the clutch out & feed the gas in nice & smoothly. Once the car is moving around 2-3 MPH it's most likely safe to let the clutch out all the way & accelerate.

Shifting without Nose dive:
OK, while rolling in gear, find the Disengagment point of the clutch & again remember that point of pedal travel.

To shift, KEEP ON the gas & start depressing the clutch, LET OFF the gas at the same time the clutch reaches the disengaged point. Then shift to your next gear.



Letting out the clutch after gear change (econo) :
Once you're in the next higher gear, without giving it ANY gas... Slowly & smothly let out the clutch. Once the clutch has been feathered in the first 1/3 of the way, let it all the way out & give it gas.


Letting out the clutch after gear change (race type) :
In this type of shifting, you wanna blip (rev) the engine to match RPM with tranny speed before letting out the clutch. With this method, usually you blip then aggressivly let out the clutch & accelerate. But typically, this is used for down shifting.

Once in the higher gears, you can shift & the inertia of the car & slightly faster movments should do just fine.

Before you know it, you'll be tearin ass like the other guys on the streets. Just remember: Fast isn't fast... SMOOTH is fast.