Show vs. Go : Performance at it's best

Call me an angry import driver but lets cover the basics of performance... ESPECIALLY when you want to be a racer.

Big Hp adders:

Turbo, Nitrous, Supercharger, an expensive (more than anyone can afford) all motor

Minor Hp adders:

Cams WITH I/H/E tuned!

0 (read ZERO) Hp adders:

An Intake (Wow that n/a 1.6ltr really pulls in the air!!!)
Dual exhaust on a 4 cylinder
Bolton exhaust tips (actuall diamater 1.5" underneath)
Stickers (I know this has been beat to death)


Dollar per HP... don't waste your money, save for FI.

Application of power-

What works:

Springs - but only if they are setup correctly. (A 3" drop might look tight but it will help destroy your undercarrage, exhaust, downpipe if turbo, shocks)

Traction bars/Strut braces/Sway bars - Again lets not kid ourselves... pep boys doesn't sell performance parts!

Tires - Smaller diameter = faster and less weight typically (Tight ass 18's not only look like shit on a 4 cylinder but well... you figure it out)

What doesn't work (despite popular belief)

Any wings on a street car larger than stock (They are just for looks guys, 4 cylinders don't need them unless your driving a lotus esprit turbo pushing 150+mph... Sorry to break it to you like this, but it's true )

PHAT bodykit - looks don't mean shit when it comes to racing on the street, you might look fast YO! but when your 3 bus-lenghts back you actually look like a pathetic fool who wasted 50-70% of the cost of a turbo/supercharger setup. Of coarse that giant opening in front will definately allow you to show off your stock radiator and a/c lines!!!

Reality vs. Fiction Translation

"I'm going all motor" = I'm too broke and can't afford FI or I spent all my money on a body kit and rims.

"All motor is more reliable" = Jeleous that for the same amount of money someone will have more power, and I'm too broke.

"VTEC isn't that good for Turbo" = I couldn't get a car w/ it and I'm ignorant of the word DYNO and it's application.

'VTEC' = 2 cams in one, possible by use of a hydraulic like setup (i.e. moves the hp/tq curve up higher in the rpm band)

"I got the jump on him" = I deep staged into the intersection or ambushed him from a roll.

act of driving like an azz through a busy street after being challenged = I know you'll kick my ass so i'll show you how dangerous I can be to society by driving recklessly, and I'm too afraid to line up even though I revved on you..

act of performing a flyby = I have to show my friends how bad I am and save face in front of my girlfriend.

***I know I could go on forever but I think this will either be entertaining or an excercise in frustration....***

Bottom line -

I'm bored at work!

[Racing Rice]

Another Great post...

I say another Sticky canidate here..

LOL- This is definitely going to be a sticky.

[KwikR6]

GSRwBOOST has the best advice.

Thanks for giving ricers something to read, and maybe learn something too.

Ya man I feel ya, I love it when a high school kid come up to me and see's my engine and automatically says"damn man you must have at least 200 hp". All I have is a 55mm TB, header, 2.75in exhaust, CAI, and super afc! I would be lucky to push out 165 hp to the crank! A turbo civic would eat me alive and I do mean EAT. I hate rice racers who know nothing and talk everything!

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by GSRwBOOST
"I got the jump on him" = I deep staged into the intersection or ambushed him from a roll.

hahahahha sometimes true, but not always. sometimes people do actualy get a better launch, but we all know what you mean, the drift into the intersection at yellow, im sitting here puzzled, only to end up taking him very shortly after im ahead of him. then well i took you off the line.........true..... but you also starting moving 5 seconds before me.

[ChrisCantSkate]

another great one, the i can spin my tires longer than you. or let go from a roll.... ok... then haul ass upto 30, then i get to 40 to catch upto them, slow down to 30 and while im slowing down they punch it........

[Addict]

Funny post... Felt like venting?
Just few misconceptions though...

An Intake (Wow that n/a 1.6ltr really pulls in the air!!!)

Not a 0 HP adder. Though of course its not going to add HP like FI.

"I'm going all motor" = I'm too broke and can't afford FI or I spent all my money on a body kit and rims.

Come on now. This isn't always the case. Just because you have a strong bias towards FI doesn't mean that NA or all motor is bad.

"All motor is more reliable" = Jeleous that for the same amount of money someone will have more power, and I'm too broke.

A little bias. I'm not saying one is more reliabel than the other. No matter if you go FI or all motor, there's going to be constant maintenance involved.

I do like the.....

act of driving like an azz through a busy street after being challenged = I know you'll kick my ass so i'll show you how dangerous I can be to society by driving recklessly, and I'm too afraid to line up even though I revved on you..

Too true....

mostly true except the boost with vtec part. i can see you are a little biased being that you bought a GSR and boosted it, and people have probably told you that you shouldnt boost a motor with a high compression ratio, and you are just trying to make yourself feel better. If your internals are stock, a turbo LS will beat your turbo GSR because of the fact that the LS motor can boost a whole hell of a lot more than your GSR motor can because of compression ratio. You will be able to beat a turbo LS if you spend some money out of that endless bank account of yours and buy some 9.0:1cr pistons/rods then you can beat a turbo LS, and then you will still be paying almost $7000 when a turbo LS will only cost $4000. Not to mention when you start boosting at higher psi you will actually lose horsepower because of a little thing called overlap when your boost is shot out your tail pipe because the vtec had to keep the exhaust valve open longer. Do you think papadakis or ANY other boosted 4cyl/6cyl/8cyl in the single digits 1/4 have vtec? no. thankyou, have a nice day.

Trust me, I'm loaded for bear...

Well lets see... I raced a LS w/ Revhard stage two.. and ate his ass up at one lengh in each gear... and had to wait for him to catch up to find out what his mods were.. He was talking mad sheet and I had to shut him down... I rolled right around in teh middle of the street and had him line em up.. waited for his signal.. he was toast....I was running 8psi andhe was running 9psi.

He scoffed at my car as he drove by... thinking he was on top of the world with his turbo.. and low and behold he met somone with more money than him...

My mods are as follows, just so you know I'm not "just trying to make myself feel better"....


Yes I spent some money on this stuff, but as you can see I subscribe to the performance side rather than the slow arse show side...

1999 Integra GSR @ 1bar
JG Prepped block (Sleeved, Aries 9-1, Saenz rods, blockguard, knifedged crank, new bearings, B&B'd)
Turbonetics T4/T3 turbo
Spearco Intercooler
Vortec FMU, FPR
AEM fuel rail, 370cc injectors, MSD 6BTM, MSD coil, MSD dist. cap
NGK plugs and wires
Quaife LSD, khumo 712's
Gauges for monitoring that stuff
Blitz DSBC, Blitz DTT, Fields SFC

btw: JG did the block, my shop pulled the engine and I did the turbo and other stuff.... so it wasn't just a "I want that, how much to install"

I think I have some room to talk shit....

Performance gets you to the next light before the Saleen S281, not the bodykit and phat 18's!!! bottom line.

well im just saying. stock-stock LS can boost in upwards of 13psi while GSR can hardly safely boost 9psi.

Im sure you spent well over $4000 with all that stuff you have. But if you want to talk money.

GSR motor-->~$3000 + Drag 3 turbo ~$5500 + 9.0:1cr pistons/rods --> ~$6250 to boost as much as the LS can.

LS motor-->~$1500 + Drag 3 turbo ~$4000
not to mention the LS block has a slightly higher bore than the GSR can. why dont you add a new IM/TB, cammed, etc, CRV bottom end w/ custom 9.2-9.4:1cr pistons, sleeved micropolished crank etc. etc get it ready for boost. your spending about as much as a turbo GSR cost while the turbo GSR is still toodling around on 1.8L and your glorious VTEC, there IS indeed no replacement for displacement.

and no shit about the body kit with 18's me and my freinds talk shit about that more than we should.

Well.. I'm actually like I said done with the car...

300whp was the goal when I started two years ago... and I feel comfortable with that... no more mods...

I'm sure other combinations work just fine, but realistically I have a GSR motor in my GSR, and putting a frankenstein machine together from a myraid of other parts is.. well.. to me.. ghetto.

Performance vs. show.... well we all know the outcome...

moral of the post.. don't rev on a cobra or SS if all you have is vtec, a big wing, altezzas and an intake! You'll lose...

Originally posted by GSRwBOOST
moral of the post.. don't rev on a cobra or SS if all you have is vtec, a big wing, altezzas and an intake! You'll lose...

fasho

[ChrisCantSkate]

i'd personaly pick a h22, gsr or a b16 to turbo over their non vtec partners going on stock internals. honda makes the vtec engines stronger, and with any turbo i'd hope you drop compression, rebuild block, and change cams. at 9 psi a fmax kit put an extra 155WHP to a 97 base preldue, no ignition or timing adjustment. only mod was an exaust. the na test had intake headers and exaust.you may push 13psi on a stock ls block, but i'd take 9 psi and 155hp in a h22....

[2000Pimpinex]

Good post. Got a laugh out of it.

horsepower is very important, but so is weight, and especially 1/4 mile times! VTEC or nonVTEC, both engines are pretty damn good.

Hey GSRwboost, have you encountered any problems with too much torque or wheel spin in the low gears with the turbo?

Have you or anyone you know tried a boost controller with the scramble boost function? I'm planning on Turboing my Teg, so I'm curious as to how it's gonna feel.
Good articles/topics too!

Also, is your turbo kit from a specific company? i.e. HKS or Greddy, etc.

Well my Teg has a Drag kit on it (Turbonetics turbo) w/ all the associated crap that goes with getting a nice turbo setup.... both wheels do spin through first and second and bark in third if I launch correctly I only spin through second.... no torque steer since I have an LSD, and almost no wheel hop... just lots of spinning...

I have the blitz dsbc, but dont use the scramble feature... I don't have time to reach down to hit the button... if I did, it would be over before it started..... I just leave it at 10lbs most of the time and that's good enough to spank most cars... I don't mind letting them get a slight lead off the line because I can reel them in shortly after I get to a point wehre traction isnt that much of an issue...

On a roll.... I'm deadly... the khumo's dig in, power comes down and it's all over but the crying...

That's sounds like you have a pretty sweet setup. I need a LSD, last few races I did my tires were hopping worse than a rabbit on crack.
What type of Limited Slip are you running? I was looking at the Type R limited slip, that way I could service it and stuff at the dealer.

Quaife LSD

Cool, that's what I'm looking at getting. That will probably be the next thing I do with my car.

[4jacks]

WOW !! What a post !! I can feel the love.

But you have to relize that ppl have choices to make... Spend $2,000 on a turbo..... or 18" chrome.....
I'd pick the Chrome! I know I shouldn't say that in the Kill story forum, But it's not Like Anyone in the world actually Bought chrome wheels and stickers to Go fast. It's all about looks....

who do you think can get more women, Brad Pitt or Carl Lewis???

Maybe Carl Lewis, Doesn't Want Fifty Women, He just wants some Gold Medals.... We'll I say more Power to em.

It Never Bothered Me when I Am sitting at a Light Minding My Own, and Some Wigged out Interga Pulled Up Next to me, and want's to cream me. Most of the Time I'd race em and let em have his Day. But we both know who's car looks prettier sitting at that Light.


My personal opionin is this ... ALL SHOW, Enough Go so The minivan doesn't cut you off.

If you rather Have ALL GO ... that's fine... just don't assume I spent All that money on my Wing for AREODYNAMICS !!!

Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

Looks is good too, but I think it depends on the car. A civic could probably use a little bit of dress up.
Me personally, I like the Intergra's body style from the factory, so I see no need to blaspheme a brilliant body style with a cheesy looking body kit that doesn't even fit right.
Chrome is a personal taste but in my opinion it has no place on 4 cylinder cars. They need all the torque they can get and with fatty chrome rims they aren't gonna pull ahead of a Semi-truck, much less a minivan (a little exagerating).

Plus, if you have a reasonably nice car, the chicks (since you mentioned pimpin potential) will think it's fast, so when you get smoked by Aunt Edna in her station wagon, you won't look so cool.

But, everyone has their thing. I like show cars and I like fast cars. I think any car whether fast or slow, when dressed up correctly will look like a winner whether it can haul ass down the strip or not.

I'm addicted to speed and acceleration, so I like funtion over form, but I do keep my car impeccably clean.

[4jacks]

Incabus,

Great reply... that was funny.

Why do you relate the car having a four banger to the chrome though, as far as body style I can't relate the two. Plus a lot of cars out thier have a Optional Six. And unless you keep up on the line, You can't tell at first glance.

One thing about your Integra Is Not everyone in the world has one... I see about 12 Civic's a Day that look just like Mine! And I'm sure that every other Civic owner can say the same. When I had my probe I could count the other Probes I saw, Now I'm counting all the Silver 02 Civic HX's out thier. Therefore Civics need a lot more Cosmetic Modifaction just to get the "THAT'S MY CAR!" feeling. One Reason I'm thinking a new front Facia will be my first investment.

I still think Speed Is great! And important for the Aunt Edna reason, But I just list it Second On my Priority List. The Basics Will be Enough for me (Cold Air, Exhaust, and maybe Headers) Then Of course I gotta get those Big FAT gauges, that I have no Clue What they do, and a nice chrome Fire-extinguisher. But that's just for looks Of course =)


Patrick
4jacks

I agree with you on the Civics being a dime a dozen, and so are Integras, especially the ones before the 98's came out. I fully agree that civics can use some cosmetic work, so as to personalize the car. Not that I am putting Civics down because I think Civics look great as they are, but I guess as far as my personal tastes go, I'm happy with a front spoiler that adds on to the existing front fascia. Civics have some cool looking body kits out there but I'm not totally in to the body kit thing. I like the sleeper look. But I respect everyone's likes and dislikes and I wouldn't knock you or your car if it was more show than go.
Now, if a car has some kick ass body work done AND some crazy engine mods like turbo or supercharger, nitrous, cams, ported and polished head or any combination of those, then the car is that much better because it looks fast and it IS fast.

I think if your looking for show quality versus just flat out speed, and exhaust is still a must because many body kits don't look right with a dinky stock exhaust sitting back there. Many people in my area (southern cali) stick a body kit on without even painting them yet, and they don't even do a good job of mounting the parts, so it looks really bad. I'm not really into chrome rims but I saw an integra at my school today with chrome rims and air bags. That was pretty tight.

Originally posted by Incubus
I'm not really into chrome rims but I saw an integra at my school today with chrome rims and air bags. That was pretty tight.

uh.. no

C'mon! There's something to be said about hydraulics and airbags! They might not totally fit to an Integra, but on trucks and G rides they kick ass!

[Addict]

Originally posted by Incubus
C'mon! There's something to be said about hydraulics and airbags! They might not totally fit to an Integra, but on trucks and G rides they kick ass!

You won't convince him otherwise(GSRwBOOST). He's all go......

True, I'm into "GO".... we must know each other from another board...

As for the MSD box in your sig... if you didnt mount it yet.. I mounted mine in the passenger side area, right next to the center console, keeps it out of the weather and cramped engine bay (need room for actuall mods that are required to go in engine bay)..

[Addict]

Originally posted by GSRwBOOST
True, I'm into "GO".... we must know each other from another board...

As for the MSD box in your sig... if you didnt mount it yet.. I mounted mine in the passenger side area, right next to the center console, keeps it out of the weather and cramped engine bay (need room for actuall mods that are required to go in engine bay)..

That's a thought. I hadn't thought about doing it that way. I'll have to look into that. Did you mount it on the console side or on the floor?

That little hump that the center console sits on.. I mounted in on that... facing the passengers leg.. so it's mounted verticaly againt the "floorboard" part that raises up to meet the dash part... (on the carpet part)....

looks good with wire loom around the wires, and you can run them along that to the firewall, and into the grommet under the glovebox area into the engine bay...

[Addict]

Originally posted by GSRwBOOST
That little hump that the center console sits on.. I mounted in on that... facing the passengers leg.. so it's mounted verticaly againt the "floorboard" part that raises up to meet the dash part... (on the carpet part)....

looks good with wire loom around the wires, and you can run them along that to the firewall, and into the grommet under the glovebox area into the engine bay...

Best Idea I've heard! Thanks. Off to go get some wire loom & screws....

I'm bored in my computer science class right now so I re-read this thread.
LS engines and GSR engines both have their strengths and weaknesses. I have an LS engine, and for quite a while I was bummed because I didn't hav VTEC. I went back to the dealer and was even filling out the paper work for either a Prelude or a GSR, just so I could have this "holy grail" they call VTEC.

Don't get me wrong, VTEC is awesome, and definitely gives good performance numbers, but people hate too much on the LS engine. Give the engine it's due!
I know a guy who boosted his LS to 300 hp, so as long as your at the same horsepower as the big bad VTEC engine, does it matter whether you have VTEC? Not really. Hp is hp, and whatever means you pursue to achieve your desired horsepower is a personal choice, but when all is said and done, if you have 300 horsepower LS and a 300 horsepower GSR, is there really that much of a difference? I don't have actual 1/4 or 0-60 numbers, but I'd wager they are pretty close. That is, of course, keeping in mind that they have same suspension mods so that they can lay that power to the ground, but that is where the difference between winning and losing can often be found, especially on the street.
Anyway, GSRwBoost.........keep up the cool threads! I always get a kick out of your topics and threads!