Why You Should Use Honda Coolant Only...

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by Nexus242

I can't imagine Prestone, Zerex or Peak would cause erosion of your inner gaskets even if they are Honda gaskets. Just stick with a top name brand and you should be alright with no leaks.

I cannot help it if you have a lack of imagination, Nexus. Besides anybody into debating knows this playground ploy to be the "argumentum ad ignoratiam" or "appeal to ignorance" fallacy, e.g. Nexus242 can't imagine something is true, therefore it must be false. Please!!!

Let's play fair. I'll provide you with evidence and you dispute it. That way you can't plead ignorance or lack of imagination...

SOURCE: Any Honda Dealer Web Site

Why must I use Honda-brand antifreeze/coolant in my engine/radiator?

• Most coolants labeled safe for aluminum engines actually aren't. The silicates and/or borates added to most coolants act as abrasives on the cooling systems.
  
• Honda's formulation for coolant does not use silicates or borates to enhance the corrosion protection for aluminum components. Instead, Genuine Honda antifreeze/coolant uses a proprietary organic corrosion inhibitor.
  
• The advantages of the Honda coolant are clear. Its ability to inhibit corrosion and the absence of silicates makes it the only coolant recommended for your Honda.
  
• If Genuine Honda antifreeze/coolant is not available, you may use another major-brand non-silicate coolant as a temporary replacement. Make sure it is a high-quality coolant recommended for aluminum engines.
  
• However, continued use of any non-Honda coolant may result in corrosion, causing the cooling system to malfunction or fail. Have the cooling system flushed and refilled with Honda antifreeze/coolant as soon as possible.

And, of course, here's the infamous Honda Corp letter written to its' Honda and Acura dealers:

Genuine Honda Coolant is the Only Way to Go

Increasingly severe operating conditions and the advent of lower maintenance requirements have resulted in significant changes in the variety and the concentration of additives used in engine coolant. Also, the continual improvements in engine and vehicle design have challenged coolant suppliers to design products that perform well in a more demanding environment.

To meet these needs, Honda engineers have developed a superior, high-quality coolant that has several advantages over the competition.

Some antifreeze, although labeled as safe for aluminum parts, may not be compatible with Acura cooling system components. Extensive research and testing by both Honda R&D and CCI, the manufacturer of the Honda coolant, have proven that the abrasive silicates and/or borates found in most domestic coolants can cause these problems:

• Silicates bond to the surface of the water pump seal and act as an abrasive, causing considerable seal erosion and coolant leakage.
  
• In actual tests, the silicated coolant caused early leakage. This leakage increased dramatically until a substantial portion of the coolant had been lost.
  
• In contrast, the Honda coolant had almost no leakage through the duration of the test.

There was a chart here, entitled "Coolant Leakage from Water Pump Seal", showing Leaked Coolant Volume in ml as follows for each test duration in Hours. This is the text:

Time
Honda Coolant volume leaked
Typical Silicated Coolant volume leaked

24 hours
0 ml
21 ml

48 hours
1 ml
36 ml

72 hours
2 ml
47 ml

96 hours
2 ml
55 ml

120 hours
2.5 ml
56 ml

144 hours
3.5 ml
57 ml

168 hours
4 ml
58.8 ml

192 hours
6 ml
63 ml

200 hours
6 ml
64 ml

• Silicates tend to gel and settle in the coolest parts of the cooling system, causing radiator plugging and overheating.
  
• Borates cause pitting corrosion on the cylinder head.
  
• Silicate inhibitors are difficult to stabilize and, therefore, limit coolant shelf life.

Most commercially available coolants were originally designed for cast iron engines. Silicate, an inexpensive additive, was added to coolants to prevent aluminum corrosion, but the long-term durability of the combination was not tested.

In contrast, Honda coolant was designed specifically for aluminum engines. It contains an organic corrosion inhibitor instead of silicate. This superior formula gives these advantages:

• No silicate abrasion of water pump seals. For example, these graphs show the surface roughness of two aluminum water pump seal rings. Seal A, exposed to silicated coolant, shows considerable damage. Seal B, exposed to Honda coolant, displays only minute wear.
  
• (graphs here, showing roughness across the surface, with A a very wiggly line, and B a very smooth line)
  
• No plugging or overheating caused by silicate gelling.
  
• Excellent corrosion protection for aluminum components.
  
• Long-term corrosion protection for other cooling system materials (steel, cast iron, copper, solder, gaskets, seals, and O-rings).

You can find less expensive coolants on the market, but now you can see why genuine Honda coolant is the only coolant approved for Honda and Acura vehicles (it MUST be used for warranty repairs). Honda's non-silicate formula delivers added protection not offered by 95 percent of other brands. Since our customers expect lower maintenance, you're doing them an injustice if you use any other coolant.

Okay, dispute away, bro... :o

so if honda's shit is so good why do the people that design this stuff as a major product for their company not have a clue?
explain this one to me. im not questioning your statement. im just wondering how prestone and all the others can not be even close to a car-makers anti-freeze.

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by Maxvla
...im just wondering how prestone and all the others can not be even close to a car-makers anti-freeze.

Sure, that's easy to answer. Look at this pic:



Can you read the price tag on top of my coolant bottle? It says $17.75.

Honda sells it by the quart too. A quart of pre-mixed Honda Type-II Coolant [mixed 50:50 with water] costs $4.00. That's why I buy it straight [Type-I] and mix it myself.

Now, I'll ask you, how much does Prestone, or any of the other domestic antifreezes, cost? Any other questions???

[Racing Rice]

Just curious.. Who actually makes the coolant? Does Honda, or do they have someone make it and put their name on it like the oil filters, etc?

my mechanic suggests i use Honda coolant only. and no, he does'nt work for Honda. he's just someone who does engine swaps in his spare time.

Toyota coolant. Non-silicant based, and probably the best damn coolant/anti-freeze on planet earth. Not only does Toyota supply their own cars with coolant in the CART/FedEx championship series, but the also supply the Ford/Cosworth and Mercedes-Benz/Illmour teams

I'm guessing Honda uses its own.

i work part time at pep boys and the cheap stuff runs about 4 dollars a gallon, the peak or halvoline dexcool, run about 7-7.50 a gallon, and that is undiluted. 17 bills is a lotta money to put out for coolant.

[Racing Rice]

But it isnt if you have to Replace radiators, seals, thermostats and waterpumps all the time..

ok so you proved its more expensive... but didnt answer my question. if honda's coolant is so superior wouldnt it behoove the major coolant companies to make something of similar quality?

[4jacks]

Maxvla's got a good point... all these companie's are paying thier engineers big bucks to shell out quality and value, There is no reason they can't come up with the same or better product, Even if it cost more, EVERY manufactor I know puts out a Good , Better, Best product line. I work in retail and constantly have to tell people... dont buy that "it's a watered down version of this" or "that bonds at 90 psi... this bonds at 760 psi... which do you want holding down your floor ?"

But on the Other hand it's only $17 dollars !!! I mean how often do you have to replace it ! Gesh, i cant even take my wife to the Movies for 17 dollars.

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by 4jacks

But on the Other hand it's only $17 dollars !!! I mean how often do you have to replace it !

Yep, and HP Type-I Coolant isn't diluted, so you only have to use half the bottle [50:50].

You guys DO realize a Honda CiViC only has a 1-gallon cooling system, right???

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by Maxvla
ok so you proved its more expensive... if honda's coolant is so superior wouldnt it behoove the major coolant companies to make something of similar quality?

Come on, Maxvla, I negotiate labor contracts for a living. I know every debating trick in the book, plus some...

Your argument has taken the form of a rhetorical question. Answering your question, however, is impossible, unless you take for granted the fact that Honda coolants are, indeed, "superior." You obviously regard that as doubtful, so answering the question amounts to admitting something that should not be admitted.

Based on the parameters and limitations of your question, if I say Honda HP coolants are "superior", you will say that proves that other companies MUST make something similar. If I say they DON'T make anything similar, I would be admitting Honda coolants ARE NOT superior.

You're using dishonest debating tactics. It's a lose-lose situation no matter how I answer you. If you would like to restate your question in a different way, I'll be glad to give you an honest answer. Otherwise, Homey don't play that game...

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by NoNafs
halvoline dexcool, run about 7-7.50 a gallon, and that is undiluted...

Yeah, a lot of ppl substitute Texaco Havoline Dex-Cool for OEM coolant[s] in Jap cars. Ditto for Euro cars. However, it still isn't as good as Honda HP Coolant, IMO, which was designed by Honda R&D specifically for use in Honda cars, motorcycles, et cetera.

The problem I have with Dex-Cool is that they have simply substituted silicates and borates with another cutting-edge inhibitor technology. Texaco uses an inorganic salt-based carboxylate and organic acid technology [OAT] additive/inhibitor package to extend its' range of compatibility with other antifreezes. This is hardly a high-tech solution [no pun intended] to silicate antifreezes, as far as I'm concerned...

[KwikR6]

I have to say BDC your a wealth of information. The only products I use on my civic are. Mobil 1 for my engine, and Honda antifreeze. I think it's pointless to use generic brands and a waste of money. Honda has proved itself time and time again that it's products and cars can hold up. I don't see the point in using "No Name" brands because they are probably going to cost you more in the long run anyway.

Originally posted by NoNafs 17 bills is a lotta money to put out for coolant

$17.00??? Think of it in the long run man. Seventeen Dollars isn't much. It's like saying."I'll just tape up my broken rad hose." Might as well do it properly the first time.Anyway that's my two cents.

[Sivik]

damn good thread...

4jacks I can answer your question even without knowing much. Because Honda is more concentrating.
The other manufactures of Anti-Freeze have to make it for a lot of different vehicles. Honda on the other hand has a small amount to design em for. Plus they are making a product for their own product, I think they know what's best!

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by juvenile
...Because Honda is more concentrating. The other manufactures of Anti-Freeze have to make it for a lot of different vehicles...

Yes, thank you! I think the better word would have been 'focused', but they should get your drift...

When you buy generic antifreeze, it HAS to be able to mix with ALL other brands and types of coolants without causing any damage to various types of cooling systems. Why???

Ppl are lazy and stupid. Most ppl will never change their coolant the whole time they own their vehicle. When the overflow bottle gets empty, they go to Wal-Mart and buy the cheapest thing they can find. Then they go out in the parking lot and put it in. The rest of the bottle sits in their trunk, or in their garage for a year or two, or until the tank runs dry again.

So, what are the two most important properties for any 'generic' antifreeze? They must have an extended shelf-life and they must be able to mix with all other brands and types of antifreeze.

Good point, bro! I touched on this a few messages back, but really didn't develop it properly...

Originally posted by BlackDeuceCoupe

Come on, Maxvla, I negotiate labor contracts for a living. I know every debating trick in the book, plus some...

Your argument has taken the form of a rhetorical question. Answering your question, however, is impossible, unless you take for granted the fact that Honda coolants are, indeed, "superior." You obviously regard that as doubtful, so answering the question amounts to admitting something that should not be admitted.

Based on the parameters and limitations of your question, if I say Honda HP coolants are "superior", you will say that proves that other companies MUST make something similar. If I say they DON'T make anything similar, I would be admitting Honda coolants ARE NOT superior.

You're using dishonest debating tactics. It's a lose-lose situation no matter how I answer you. If you would like to restate your question in a different way, I'll be glad to give you an honest answer. Otherwise, Homey don't play that game...

first of all im not sure what your smoking but i am not arguing with you. im not even debating. im asking why major coolant companies do not make a coolant of similar quality of the honda coolant. i have no doubt honda coolant is the best or at least one of the best. also... who cares that honda has a smaller group of cars to make their high quality coolant for. the big coolant companies could just make certain coolants for certain lines of cars but be of the same tech as the honda coolant. so you can throw that argument out of the window.
in the world of autos (especially autos) it is very strange to find a company that has such a large edge like you describe here.

simple explanation: if i were prestone or other... and i knew honda's coolant made my best product look like grape jelly i would get my high dollar engineers to make something of similar quality so i wouldnt get laughed off the motor circuit. MY QUESTION!!! --- Why don't they make something like honda's to compete with them? in motorsports competition is everything.

you are trying to prove your superiority to me by taking a front of ingenuity when there is no need. so take a chill pill and get out of the clouds you are living in.

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by Maxvla
simple explanation: if i were prestone or other... and i knew honda's coolant made my best product look like grape jelly i would get my high dollar engineers to make something of similar quality so i wouldnt get laughed off the motor circuit. MY QUESTION!!! --- Why don't they make something like honda's to compete with them? in motorsports competition is everything...

There you go! That's more like it!

When you buy 'generic' antifreeze, it HAS to be able to mix with ALL other brands and types of coolants without causing any damage to various types of cooling systems. Why???

Ppl are lazy and stupid. Most ppl never change their coolant the whole time they own their vehicle. When the overflow bottle gets empty and/or the radiator overheats, they go to Wal-Mart and buy the cheapest crap [like Prestone] they can find. Then they go out in the parking lot and pour it in. The rest of the unused bottle sits in their trunk or in their garage for the next year or two. If their 'other' car runs out of coolant, they dump the remains in there, and so forth.

So, what are the two most important properties for any 'generic' antifreeze? They must have an extended shelf-life [contents don't seperate in the bottle] and they must be able to mix with all other brands and types of antifreeze; fluids designed for Jap cars, Euros, Domestics, whatever...

Make more sense now???

you still didnt answer my question... oh well. i guess you can't answer simple questions. or understand them for that matter.

i do not appreciate you reposting a comment. do you think i havent read that bs already?

[4jacks]

Alright , I'm still Backin Maxvla... (even though I can't pronounce his damn Nick)

People are getting Paid lots of money here! Damnit they need to be making better products! EVERY industry has a few different consumer Basis,

POOR AND GHETTO, Sometimes I'll use the good stuff, and I want the Best,

Everyone on this board most likely falls under I want the best, at least for their car, or else they wouldn't be reading this board.

The auto industry is Growing... big time ... NasCar is BOOMING ... (though i still can't watch it) ... and More and more Company's are paying lots of money to get their name on a winning Car. The ones that pay off are the Auto related products that WIN Races !

So If I'm making an auto product, no matter what it is, A High quality Product with its label slapped onto a Winning Car = $$$$$

If I have to make 9 products to do this, so be it, no big deal,
Keep the cheap stuff for Wal-Mart Shoppers
Make Better Stuff, for the Middle Consumer
Make 7 different versions of the Best stuff to suit all the different kinds of Engine parts.

Example ... I work at Home Depot, we have 12 different types of mortar for setting Ceramic Tile... All made by the SAME Company, that company does NOT make Ceramic Tile, All these different mortars do the Same thing , just in different strengths and for different Applications. This company has Successfully sold products to all levels of Consumers and Dominated the market for the entire US. Although it is not difficult for any other company to produce these Products.

Any Manufacturer that wants to be successful, HAS to keep these guidelines. I can NOT believe that any Company can stay in business selling only the a Bottom end product, Especially a product for $4 that eveyone only buys once a year!

This is not a rhetorical question, this is basic stuff you can learn in MacroEconomics 101 ....

And you can not simply SETTLE an Argument with Evidence that only comes from Honda... What do these other Companies say about their products ? I'm sure they test them too... I'm sure they also list their ingredients some where.

Sorry I went off Track a little, but it's all relevent and pretty easy to follow.

And this Mixing with other Coolants bit. Oil mixes w/ oil, and latex w/ latex... Coolant is one or the other, I won't pretend to know with one, but I know you Dont use an Oil based Coolant this year and throw in Latex Based next Year. So you cant Say... they need to make a product that will mix........ You cant stop it from mixing! And shelf life ??? What is the Shelf life of these products ?? I rather doubt even Honda's is under a Year, and It is not the Companies responsibility to Maintain shelf life, it is the Retailers... If it does not sell before Shelf life expires... ORDER LESS next time. If their is any damage it will be the retailers fault, not the company. And Nothing sits to long on the shelf at Wal-mart.

Therefore, BDC... I admire your persistence, But your original statement still has flaws, even though I Believe you that Honda's product is better. I can't let you simply trash talk a whole industry.

Your Turn

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by 4jacks
BDC... I admire your persistence, But your original statement still has flaws, even though I Believe you that Honda's product is better. I can't let you simply trash talk a whole industry.

Okay, that's fine. Let's see what Bob Weber of The Chicago Tribune has to say about it:

SOURCE:Motormouth, Published January 3, 2002

Q. I have a 1990 Nissan, a 1995 Toyota and a 1999 Honda. I would like to use an extended-life antifreeze. The manufacturers' customer assistance people will not tell me whether the antifreeze is compatible. How does one know if you can use this type of antifreeze? J.C., Oakbrook Terrace

A. Don't use it. There have been numerous cooling-system problems reported by numerous automakers when extended-life coolants were used in engines that were not designed for it. Gaskets and seals can leak and so on. Stick with the stuff your car came with.

*Bob Weber is an ASE-certified Master Automobile Technician, having recertified every five years since 1978. Address your technical questions about cars and trucks to him in care of Motormouth, 17717 Silcott Springs Rd., Purcellville, Va., 20132. Send e-mail, including name and town, to MMTribune@netscape.net. Answers will be supplied only through the newspaper.

Your turn...

[4jacks]

**mumbles**

damn he's good



That's it ! ... I'm going make some phone calls on Monday... get this all straightened out !

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by 4jacks
**mumbles** ...damn he's good...

Anyone with a nick like '4jacks' should realize it doesn't hurt to have an Ace or two up your sleeves...

[Sivik]

points to BDC... i'm gonna stay a spectator in this one...

[Sivik]

However, i will say something, or maybe its the alcohol talking...

I think it goes back to the golden rule "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." These companies try to bring a product out to the market at least cost to them for the most profit. I am new to owning a Honda so I can't comment on the quality of their products other than the car.

But so far, these companies are still in business with the products they make. The average consumer always shops for a bargain. If they see two different types of anti-freeze on the shelf they will buy the cheaper one if both claim to do the same thing. However, if they are experience in autos or whatever the product is, they know what to buy and what not to buy.

These companies are in it for the money. As long as they are making money they will continue to stay with the same product. Until they experience a downfall in profits or come close to bankruptcy, the products will stay the same - the least amount of work for the most amount of profit. This is why there products maybe less quality than Honda.

This is my opinion, and I'm sure I could of stated it better if I was in a better state... but oh well. My point is shown the best it could be. I see what others have to say.

[Racing Rice]

In order for companies such as Prestone to make a coolant like Honda they have to pay Engineers to research and develope something that chances are they probably wont sell all that much of anyhow. Like BDC said most people go buy the cheap stuff because they could careless what goes into their cars. The fact of the matter is its probably not cost effective for a company like Prestone to do all the R&D and the machinary and whatever else you will need to make something like that, just to pick up a few more customers. Though its hard to say how much sales would improve without knowing all the details, I just dont see it being that big of a margin.

[AzCivic]

You would think that most people would go out and buy the cheap stuff, but how many people go and buy the more expensive stuff thinking " well it cost more so it must be better". I mean I've done that a few times myself until I learned more about cars and what's best for them. But hey i'm not risking it, I'm buying some Honda brand coolant today!

Excellent thread! I'm gonna get the Honda brand antifreeze--the argument was persuasive.

well.. there was no argument... we all know honda's stuff is best. we were just discussing why prestone, etc. don't make a similar quality product.

welcome to honda style RJB... enjoy your stay.

I'm all for the Honda Coolant now!!!!

Wooooooooohoooooooooooo!!
Thanks BDC