5th Gen SS Auto: Everything you ever wanted to know.

[gerhard]

Sequential Sportshift Auto: Everything you ever wanted to know.

Well everyone,

It may not actually be everything, but I figure that I should post information I've got on the SS Auto's here.

If anyone of you that own a 5th Gen have an SS Auto, then you may be aware that Honda has finally decided to warranty 2000-2001 Prelude Auto Transmissions up to 100,000 miles.

Of course, this means that the rest of us that have been bitching about the numerous failures we've been experiencing with our 1997-1999 Preludes are out of luck...

Basically, SS Auto failures have historically fallen into two categories:

1) Never had a problem.

2) Transmission went very early on (usually under 30,000 miles), and possibly again afterwards.

I've been following this issue for a number of years and have a fair amount of information. I'm going to post that info here for everyone:

SS Auto Background:

Honda used the Prelude as it's test bed for much of it's new technology. This was the case for the SS Auto 5th Gen and the 4 speed version of the transmission.

Initially, Honda thought that the design would translate from paper to a decent product. Unfortunately, they ran into manufacturing problem - mostly quality control related due to the very tight tolerances in the transmission.

When the first problems started to be reported, Honda let the local dealers attempt to fix the problem. Generally, this entailed sending the trans out to a local trans shop to repair the unit with Honda OEM parts. Unfortunately, the trans' design was a little too new and a lot more difficult to work on. The failure rate was almost 100% attempting this form of repair.

So, Honda decided that they had to put a stop to dealers working on the transmissions. They immediately told the dealers that there was only one fix for an SS Auto: Let it completely fail and then replace it.

It turns out that Honda's own remanufacturing division started to have problems as well. They started to see a 40% failure rate on the SS Autos from the Prelude.

So, after a few years of horrible results, they turned to a company that was in the remanufacturing business. These guys were able to reliably rebuild the SS Autos and even offer a decent warranty.

That same company recommended a few improvements in the SS Auto parts, and in 2000 Honda silently updated some of parts and changed the part numbers.

The primary reason Honda has been so successful at ignoring Prelude owners and not dealing with the problem in a timely manner is that there are so few Honda Preludes with the SS Auto transmission. In a typical year Honda sold about 10,000 Preludes (5th Gen), and maybe 40 percent of those sales were SS Autos (4000 cars a year times 5 years of production = 20,000 car total!).

They would never be able to get away with this with a Honda Accord, which sells about 450,000 cars a year. So any problems would be reported by the masses to the NTSA and possibly risk a recall. (Hence the reason the SS Auto extended warranties began...Someone with a Acura TL was almost killed.)

Like many large companies: Honda seems to like to screw the little guy. Unfortunately, it is more likely that someone will have to die in an accident related a sudden transmission failure before Honda will take care of all SS Auto vehicle owners. They simply don't want to pay for a recall and consider good faith as nothing but lip service.

Replacement Options:

As of this moment, there are two companies that appear to rebuild the SS Auto. The first company, Howard Engineering, has been doing so since the beginning of the problems. The second company has recently grown in name, is much less expensive, and offers a less lengthy warranty: Phoenix Remaned Transmission.

In the future as other SS Auto Honda models become more prevalent it’s like there will be more reliable sources for rebuilds.

Howard Engineering:

If your transmission fails out of warranty, you should consider having the dealer contact Howard and get a remanufactured unit from them.

They offer 5 year / 50,000 mile warranties.

Honda only offers a 12 month / 18,000 mile warranty on their replacement units.

With Howard, they will also pay for the removal and installation of the transmission if it should fail. In other words: Howard offers a dealer like warranty that costs you nothing out of pocket should the unit fail (and includes a rental car!).

http://www.hecreman.com/

Phoenix Remanufactured Transmissions:

These guys are a wholesale / retail distributor that sells bulk rebuilt transmissions. Interestingly, they seem to know a lot about Honda transmissions from late model vehicles. I've spoken with a guy from the company, Andre, and he indicated that there were initially a lot of problems with rebuilding the sequential sportshift type automatics. Around 2000 Honda created a change in the parts for the Prelude SS Auto to deal with inherent problems. He further indicated the retrofitted (rebuilt) transmissions really should be quite reliable, and that they rebuild a large number of Honda SS type trannies (including Acura).

A quick search by one of the members of h-p.com showed that they also have an eBay outlet. They've sold hundreds of transmissions via EBay Motors and have 660+ positive feedbacks and 2 negative! That's some what impressive.

The other interesting thing about the guy on the phone was they he knew their company’s exact failure rate on all rebuilds and was willing to tell me: .13% of all of their transmissions fail. Their warranty is 6 months or 6000 miles. I guess they figure that if the transmission works from the beginning, then it should continue to work until normal wear and tear causes it to fail.

Unlike the cost of the OEM or Howard Rebuilds (about $3700), you can get a rebuild from Phoenix for $1050.00. However, Prelude SS Auto transmissions are hard to find, so you may need to send them your SS Auto and T-Converter so that they can build it. (They may not have an SS Auto in stock.) This could take up to 10 days. (The same exact thing happens with the dealer as well: They take your tranny out and send it back to Honda for rebuild.)

Their address is:

Phoenix Remanufactured Transmissions
7310 W. Roosevelt Suite 26
Phoenix, AZ 85043
623-936-6200

http://www.phoenixhardparts.com

In General with Rebuilds:

Don't waste your time having a local shop rebuild your tranny, they'll just screw it up and you'll be without your car. (This has been the case in about 9 out of 10 stories that folks have reported to me using companies like AMMCO, Lee Myles, etc.)

You need to use a company with a lot of experience rebuilding Honda SS Auto transmissions, otherwise you risk wasting your cash on an unproven quantity.

A Note about American Honda:

Many people have contacted me and told me about their problems with getting their Honda dealer to replace their SS Auto when it starts acting up (any of the symptoms listed in this note). Generally, the symptoms start minor and then get progressively worse. Usually, the tranny has issues it does not fail immediately. This means that Honda can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the transmission and then tell you to go away. I suspect the reasons for Honda ignoring the problems are two fold:

First, Honda has only one repair procedure for most of the SS Auto tranny problems: Replacement with a Remanufactured Unit. So, what the dealer tends to do is tell you something like “All Hondas do that” in order to get you to go away until the transmission completely fails. Generally, they will not fix the problem until the issue is so bad that it can’t be ignored. Initial signs of failure are generally ignored by Honda dealers.

Second, Honda dealers get paid a reduced rate for labor on warranty claims. So the dealers are generally not interested in doing warranty work when they’ve got plenty of regular work that they’ll get paid full price for.

The problem with both of the above is that it is possible that you are ignored to the point that you vehicle is no longer under warranty. At which time you find yourself paying for a tranny job that is very expensive at the dealer, that very few other companies are capable of rebuilding properly, and that has been a problem while the car was under warranty. Remember to take the car to the dealer and complain as many times as it takes to establish a paper trail that can be used to force Honda to repair your tranny under warranty. Most states division of consumer affairs live for going after car manufacturers / dealers. Especially when you have the documentation proving that you’ve tried to take care of the problem.

A Note about Level 10:

Level 10 is a company that rebuilds transmission with “high performance” parts that supposedly “bullet proof” your transmission. Many SS Auto Prelude owners have tried using Level 10. Better results are generally found IF you are sending your COMPLETE transmission and t-converter assemblies to them! That being said, there are still a large number of failures when their kits are used to rebuild your transmission. The worst part is that they rarely honor their warranty. Be very specific with them and get everything in writing. This way you can go to small claims court and get some of your money back. Be a smart consumer, get it in writing. (Deliverables and Warranty)

SS Auto Transmission Failure Symptoms:

These are the problems most people report when their trannies are failing:

1) Hard Shifts: A hard shift is when the transmission shifts from one gear to another, but BANGS itself into the next gear.

2) Soft Shifts: A soft shift is when the transmission takes a long slide into the next gear. So rather than crisply shifting into the next gear over 1 to 3 seconds, the transmission sides into the next gear over 3 to 15 seconds.

3) Slipping: Slipping is when the transmission either takes a long time to go into the next gear, or no longer goes into the next gear. When the unit attempts to shift to the next gear, the unit "slides" but doesn't quite get there. As a result the tachometer revs a few thousand RPM higher than it would normally, as there is no longer any load on the engine.

4) Grinding: Grinding is something the does happen, but it's really not typical. It's self explanatory and a sign of catastrophic failure.

Typical symptoms for a Honda SS Auto:

1) Poor shifting into reverse, especially during cold weather. Kind of clunks itself into the reverse from Park. (There is a noticeable shutter.)

2) Poor shifting into D4 from Reverse. Once again, Clunks itself into gear.

3) Hard shifts from one gear to another. Typically, 3rd to 4th gear shifting. (Imagine a steel I-beam being hit by a sledge hammer, and that's what this failure feels / sounds like.)

4) Finally, failure: Slips and never engages the next gear.

What can be done to extend the life of your SS Auto?:

Well, there are quite a few simple things that will extend the life of your SS Auto.

The first thing is to install a transmission cooler in line with the existing cooler. This will keep the overall temperature of the transmission below 200 degrees. (Ideally, you want it to be about 175 degrees F.) Be careful not to install too large a cooler, as you need to keep the trans temp up into the normal operating temps during the winter. Purchase a medium sized cooler! Not a small one, and not the largest one that is made...

The second thing you need to do religiously is change your ATF with Honda ATF every 15,000 miles. ESPECIALLY IF YOU DO NOT HAVE AN AFTERMARKET TRANSMISSION COOLER INSTALLED.

(continued in reply)

[gerhard]

Why 15,000 miles? Most Honda dealers will tell you it's a really good idea to change the ATF every 30,000 miles. (Even though the Service Manual says 90,000 and 60,000 miles depending on driving conditions. [what BS!]) However, you can only change 3 QTs at a time with a standard drain. As such, if you change the ATF every 15,000 miles you are removing particulates and refreshing the ATF's additive package (which prevents the acidic worn out ATF from effecting the transmission and keeps the seals in good condition).

Lastly, if you live in climates where you are going to face sub-zero temperatures, then you should consider using a synthetic ATF / Honda ATF mix. Generally, you can use 50%-60% Honda ATF and AMSOIL or Mobil 1 Dexron III ATFs. You can also use B&M "Synthetic Trick Shift" ATF, it flows to -65 degrees F, but is better mixed with AMSOIL or Mobil 1 as well. You will likely need to have at least 50% Honda ATF in your transmission to maintain proper shifting characteristics. It’s possible that some of the current market ATFs have been reformulated to meet the friction requirements of Honda ATF, but you can not count on that!

Interestingly, Honda ATF only thickens slightly at 0 degrees F. B&M, AMSOIL, and Mobil 1 have virtually no change at 0 degrees F and that's why the mixture works so well. (Better cold shifting, slightly better thermal transfer properties, improved lubricating properties, etc...) Keep in mind that if you use B&M "Synthetic” Trick Shift ATF it's not actually a truly synthetic fluid and will need to be changed at the proper 15,000 mile interval. B&M does have much better cold shift characteristics, but that’s because it’s a thinner ATF to begin with. (Even with synthetic ATF in the tranny you should change it regularly anyway, but especially when using Honda ATF or B&M STS.)

[ChrisCantSkate]

wow... great write up.

[ebpda9]

they had about the same problems with the mp4a and mpx trannies (92 accords). one quick way to fix that is to rev the engine to the redline in everygear and as soon as you stop the engine drain the oil. it will make the tranny run 10 x better