Bad day for terrorists...

[GT40FIED]

Ok...you really want me to break it down sentence by sentence?

People over there probably don't know a whole lot about free speech because after the Ottoman empire was broken up and what we now know is the middle east was formed, they've pretty much been fucked over by one dictator or another. If they can't differentiate between free speech and blasphemy, see above.

I think the only reason some of them chose to riot is simply because, to them, any image of Muhammed is blasphemous. Do I agree with that? No...but I'm not a muslim. And don't pretend that shit like that doesn't happen here...it just happens in a different way. Remember how so many christians just about lost their fucking heads when people started saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas"? They didn't riot but they did what we do best in this country...bitch. People here may not riot, but they do what seems to work...complain. People in the middle east are simply doing the only thing that's ever worked for them. I think it's ridiculous and unnecessary, but there it is.

I fail to see how any muslim who tries to convert anyone is any different than a christian/jew/whatever trying to convert people. Anyone can take it over the top, and when it comes to religion they often do. Simple fact of life...people are stupid and quite often crazy.

Of course I don't argue with anyone killing someone who's trying to kill you. That's just ridiculous. But if you can devise a way to track down and kill ONLY those who wish us IN THIS COUNTRY harm, be my guest. In fact, such an idea could make you president since ours sure can't come up with such a solution.

[Wren57]

See, that is an intelligent post. Wasn't so hard, was it.

I actually agree with every word of what you said. And yes, Christians bitch about things, but bitching hurts nobody. Rioting and attacking people over a cartoon does. Our difference in opinion isn't the situation now, but how to deal with it. I think the best way to deal with the problem has a couple parts;

1. Most importantly, protect Americans. Hunt down and eliminate people that pose LEGITIMATE threats to the US and US interests.
2. Educate the masses about the meaning of free speech. This will be done easiest by introducing democracy. The idea that everyone gets an equal opinion is very enticing and WILL lead to greater acceptance. There is a reason more countries are democracies now than ever.
3. LEAVE. After the seed of democracy has taken root and we ensure the innocents have a sufficient level of safety to have a fair shot at life, we need to get the f*ck out so our lasting impression is not that of imperialistic occupiers.

If you disagree with any of those 3 steps, please explain why you think it is wrong and what you would do different.

[ebpda9]

Originally Posted by Wren57

See, that is an intelligent post. Wasn't so hard, was it.

I actually agree with every word of what you said. And yes, Christians bitch about things, but bitching hurts nobody. Rioting and attacking people over a cartoon does. Our difference in opinion isn't the situation now, but how to deal with it. I think the best way to deal with the problem has a couple parts;

1. Most importantly, protect Americans. Hunt down and eliminate people that pose LEGITIMATE threats to the US and US interests.
2. Educate the masses about the meaning of free speech. This will be done easiest by introducing democracy. The idea that everyone gets an equal opinion is very enticing and WILL lead to greater acceptance. There is a reason more countries are democracies now than ever.
3. LEAVE. After the seed of democracy has taken root and we ensure the innocents have a sufficient level of safety to have a fair shot at life, we need to get the f*ck out so our lasting impression is not that of imperialistic occupiers.

If you disagree with any of those 3 steps, please explain why you think it is wrong and what you would do different.

Holy crap, the end of the world is near. You make it sounds so simple, but the fuck it is. I am looking back at romania, which came out from under the communist rule more than 17 years ago, and democracy is understood that everyone can shit whenever they want, do whatever they want. And romania is not the only contry that had that happen. Look at russia and the other easter europena countries. Nothing seems to work the way you just imagined. And to be there for about 17 years seems pretty damn imperialist to me.

And the muslims never reformed their religion since it's begining. How about christianity ? Remeber the inquisitions ? sounds to me kinda like what the muslims are doing now ? Just a more recent even is that of shinead o'connor when she claimed to "destroy the real enemy" and ripped the picture of the pope. What was the reaction ? She got banned from radio stations, tv stations and got a lot of bad publicity. I can only imagine the reaction if someone says anything bad about jesus or some other figures in christianity. And on both sides of the fence there are the religious nuts, who can only see their pov.

[Robert]

The steps to solving the problem are simple, carrying them out is a completely different story.

[Wren57]

Originally Posted by Robert

The steps to solving the problem are simple, carrying them out is a completely different story.

Couldn't agree more. However, you can't begin to solve a problem or achieve a goal without first having a vision of the future and laying out simple steps to get there.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Wren57

See, that is an intelligent post. Wasn't so hard, was it.

I actually agree with every word of what you said. And yes, Christians bitch about things, but bitching hurts nobody. Rioting and attacking people over a cartoon does. Our difference in opinion isn't the situation now, but how to deal with it. I think the best way to deal with the problem has a couple parts;

1. Most importantly, protect Americans. Hunt down and eliminate people that pose LEGITIMATE threats to the US and US interests.
2. Educate the masses about the meaning of free speech. This will be done easiest by introducing democracy. The idea that everyone gets an equal opinion is very enticing and WILL lead to greater acceptance. There is a reason more countries are democracies now than ever.
3. LEAVE. After the seed of democracy has taken root and we ensure the innocents have a sufficient level of safety to have a fair shot at life, we need to get the f*ck out so our lasting impression is not that of imperialistic occupiers.

If you disagree with any of those 3 steps, please explain why you think it is wrong and what you would do different.

Well I don't think most people disagree on what should be done, but rather how it's being done. I guess I'll break down my issue with each of those, again, point by point.

1. While we should be chasing down legitimate threats (and I'm sure we are on a smaller scale), we've almost began some weird McCarthyist crusade to weed out "terrorists" everywhere. That would be great...if everyone we accused was actually a terrorist. The fact that these people can be accused in a closed court (if they're lucky enough to even get a trial) is even more worrysome to me. It's gotten to the point that people are so scared they're willing to sacrifice many of their freedoms for a small amount of what they think is security. I firmly believe what Ben Franklin said was right "those who would trade long term freedoms for temporary security deserve neither freedom nor security". We fought a helluva lot of wars and took down some of the biggest enemies in the world without losing any of our freedoms the way we have now (unless you had the misfortune of being Japanese in the early '40s).

2. Everyone in the world deserves some sort of free speech. Once people stop listening to new and radical ideas we'll be thrust backward in time who knows how far. But people want what they want. I'm just not sure that our invading a country is the best way to let them know they can speak freely. After that they'll become dependent upon us for that freedom, and tat doesn't work out well in the long term. I just think that if enough people had been really pissed, Iraq would've overthrown itself years ago. That's Poli Sci 101. If your government doesn't work for the majority of the people, change it. That's how this country started...and we took on the biggest army in the world at the time. It's happened elsewhere, too. In the mid-1700s Burma (today's Myanmar) invaded Siam (today's Thailand). A small village called Bang Rajan fought off 10,000 well equipped Burmese invaders without armor, horses, or even decent weaponry (not 10,000 all at once of course...they came in waves). If a small bunch of farmers can fight off 10,000 invading troops, I have no doubt the Iraqi people could've changed their government themselves.

3. I definitely agree we need to get out Iraq and the midle east in general, but we've pounded the drum for so long and dug our claws in so deep I don't really see a way of doing that without just cutting them loose. Of course, if that happens we'll be right back where we are now in another 10 years. The government isn't helping us out, either. The democrats are a party of no ideas, the republicans are a party of bad ideas, and no one will even try to elect a third party candidate. Like Lewis Black said, "it's like a republican senator stands up and says 'I've got a bad idea!' then a democratic senator stands up and shouts 'and I can make it shittier!". If nobody ever works together, nothing's ever going to get done. People need to get it out of their heads that only the ideas of their party are right. Both sides I'm sure have come up with some decent ideas, but they shout each other down before those ideas go anywhere. I don't know...I don't see any clean way out of the hole we've dug for ourselves without coming off as worse then people already think we are.

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally Posted by Wren57

This will be done easiest by introducing democracy. The idea that everyone gets an equal opinion is very enticing and WILL lead to greater acceptance. There is a reason more countries are democracies now than ever.

I'm just touching on this one point... I'm tired and didn't read all the new posts...

IRAN IS DEMOCRATIC...

Free speech and democracy are only attactive to americans when it's the speech they want to hear...

SAYING that there was no holocaust and SAYING death to Israel is FREE F'ING SPEECH...

You're and bush's response to that FREE SPEECH by the FREELY ELECTED leader of a SOVERGN nation... "Bomb the fuckers"...

Riiiiiiiigggghhhht you're all for free speech and democracy.

Please tell me you see the irony in this right?

Bush says he wants to bring democracy to the middle east... So the obvious next step is to ATTACK the ONLY country that instituted our valued democracy on their own... but of course the vote didn't go bush's way and he doesn't have any brother governors in Iran so lets send our teenagers over there to "straighten things out".

[ChrisCantSkate]

democracy dosnt work for everyone. it might be the end-solution, but they have to be ready for it. like nonov said iran is democratic, and look, not working so hot. most policitcal parties CAN work with the right situation. communisim can work, but not for a poor country on the verge of a revolution(and many other situations), capitolism can work, but not in a barter/trade nation or by people who dont understand how to earn money. dictatorship can work but not by a power hungry person. to simply plant the seed of democracy then turn and run would be devistating. you need to have an educated nation that understands how and why democracy works, how capitolism works, and why they should/would want to enbark on that path.

[Wren57]

"death to israel" is not free speech, it is a threat. if you said "death to jimmy carter" you would be prosecuted for a threat. We do the same, only on a global level. the two examples you used to support irony are at best poorly related.

I am 100% for free speech. I support the Danish paper's right to publish offensive cartoons (also support the paper losing market share if their reading populace is so offended... free market, baby!) and I support the muslim community's right to protest. I do NOT support their right to protest violently or to threaten any individual, group of people, or country. Ever heard of preemptive strike?

here you go nonov, more koolaid you can drink;
http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Pr...ve_strike.html

[Wren57]

OK, Steve, onto your post. Here is cliffs notes I got out of what you posted:

1. You disagree giving up the liberties we have given up for security
--I agree to an extent. Cameras in public locations are a bit ridiculous, but other than that, what liberties have you had taken away? I haven't had any.

2. You don't care enough about basic human rights denied to other peoples because they haven't risen up against their gov't (either out of apathy, being pussies, or not having the capability of doing so).
--Your darwinistic/capitalistic ideals rare their head again, only this time on a larger scale. While I believe in economic capitalism, what you've lined out is societal capitalism. It is a valid opinion, however not one I agree with.

3. You don't want us over there but you don't want us to leave, either.
--Not really sure what to say to this one, you can't blame the present on the past and just give up on the present and future. Don't wish you'd been dealt different cards, gotta play the cards you are dealt. Deal with the situation we are in now, not where we were or where we could have been.

ps. I love intelligent debates.

[GT40FIED]

Technically "death to Israel" doesn't constitute a direct threat. If he'd said "I'm going to destroy Israel" then yeah. But lots of misguided people in this country say "death to Israel" (for context, take a trip over to the message boards at www.resistance.com) and have yet to be labeled terrorists or imprisoned for making threats. Besides, Israel isn't the U.S. I know it sounds callous, but let them fend for themselves. The only people our government has to protect is us. If we keep trying to stand up for people all over the world because we perceive them as allies we'll be at this forever. That...or our military will implode and we'll be 100 times more fucked than we are right now.

I thumbed through that site and while it's mostly whiny pussy bullshit, there is one good point. NONE of the countries in that part of the world even if nuclear equipped can harm us while we give free passes to those that could. We sure as shit didn't seem to have any problem pissing off the french when they stood against us. It's pretty arrogant of us to tell other countries to disarm while we bulk up.

Fuck it...I need to study for my Korean test.

[Robert]

Steve since the US is the only super power they have a responsibility to the world community to defend the rights adn freedoms of people who are unable to do it for themselves.

[GT40FIED]

I gotta disagree with you Rob. The only responsibility of any given government is to ensure the happiness and safety of it's own people. Again, Poli Sci 101. Any consideratiom towards those who they perceive as allies is secondary. We have no responsibility to protect anyone else in the world, period. That aspect is doubly important when that protection comes at our own risk (which defending Israel certainly would). Besides, when was the last time Israel did anything for us? I'll tell you when. Never. We throw billions and billions of dollars at them in "loans" that we never expect to be repaid. We arm them with tanks and helicopter gunships so they can take out Palestinian kids who throw rocks at tanks. We owe them NOTHING but are willing to sacrifice ourselves for their security. Fuck that. If there were more muslims than jews in this country you can bet your ass we'd be standing up for Iran and saying "fuck Israel".

It's high time we learned that we can't protect everyone no matter how much we'd like to. We learned this in Vietnam, Korea, and the first gulf war. The first two were fought against the scourge of communism. Last I checked Korea and Vietnam had split and Red China was doing just fine with communism. Now we're fighting a war against islam (say we're not all you like...you're either lying to yourself or to others). The sad truth is that the things we fight against prevail long after we're gone. It's the way of the world. People get used to certain things and new ideas tend to scare people. Differences of opinions aside, I think we can all agree it's not the best idea to piss of the muslim world any more than we absolutely have to at this point. We need their support, not their contempt. If you thought they were crazy before, just see what a few years of unwanted occupation does to them.

[ChrisCantSkate]

you are forgetting that by protecting them we are protecting our interests. and is it the responsibility for our contry to protect our assests, wether its people, capitol, or whathaveyou. if a war breaks out in the mid east and wse're not there, its gonna escalade to unthinkable proportions, and since the only reason that stockpile of arms exsists is because we had an arms race with the USSR way back durring the cold war, we made them go bankrupt and they sold their war toys to the mid east, now we have to look out for A) those countries which we have an interest in wether its for oil, land, people, etc. and B) the threat of catostrophic events to take place there, which will effect our people in the long run C) balance the power that us and the USSR are responsible for creating. you dont let your dog crap in the park and walk away from it, you clean up his shit.

now thats just what we should do being a country in the world. being the only superpower, strongest and arguably the richest country in the world, for the betterment of mankind and world development we NEED.. let me stress that NEED to make sure things cant just run out of control and sit inside our borders and say "fuck them"

[Wren57]

Gotta agree with Chris again- Israel is our main ally in that region and as such gives us greater leverage. If Israel falls and radical muslims overrun the area, their next target will be us... lest you forget that all Americans are "infidels."


Steve, you've yet to offer a better (or any) alternative to our current course of action. And don't start with hindsight, think up a plan starting today.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by ChrisCantSkate

you are forgetting that by protecting them we are protecting our interests. and is it the responsibility for our contry to protect our assests, wether its people, capitol, or whathaveyou. if a war breaks out in the mid east and wse're not there, its gonna escalade to unthinkable proportions, and since the only reason that stockpile of arms exsists is because we had an arms race with the USSR way back durring the cold war, we made them go bankrupt and they sold their war toys to the mid east, now we have to look out for A) those countries which we have an interest in wether its for oil, land, people, etc. and B) the threat of catostrophic events to take place there, which will effect our people in the long run C) balance the power that us and the USSR are responsible for creating. you dont let your dog crap in the park and walk away from it, you clean up his shit.

now thats just what we should do being a country in the world. being the only superpower, strongest and arguably the richest country in the world, for the betterment of mankind and world development we NEED.. let me stress that NEED to make sure things cant just run out of control and sit inside our borders and say "fuck them"

Thank you for laying it out for Steve.

[GT40FIED]

Well I'm not saying we shouldn't ever help our "friends", but we really need to start looking at the risk/reward. If we commit to it all or nothing there's no way we'll be able to maintain any kind of significant military force. We might think that Israel is the only thing keeping that part of the world from exploding like a potato in a microwave, but really...who listens to them? They've had the same capabilities for years, but the can't even handle a small group of people like the Palenstinians. Let's face it, they're hugely outnumbered in that part of the world by people who aren't their biggest fans. Those people aren't listening to them anyway. Israel may be our friend, but I don't see risking our own safety for theirs as being a viable plan.

As for where to go from here...I guess there are a lot of options. I mean...we're there and there's not much to be done about that now. I'd say first of all we need some people in powerful places who can recognize when what we've done is (hopefully) starting to work so we can leave as soon as possible. No more landing on aircraft carriers shouting "mission accomlpished" when we're far from done and far from accomplished. We need to develop a REAL intelligence community so shit like this doesn't happen again. We have nearly unlimited resources and the best we could do was say "oops, we messed up". That's just plain unacceptable for the only superpower left. And really, that gives carte blanche to any other country who wants to ruin someone's shit. If all you've gotta do is deliver a half assed apology, why not? Perhaps most importantly we need to work on our image across the world. The reason we're knee deep in people hating us is largely because of the way we're perceived across the world. Whether they're right or wrong, we need to start understanding that people who aren't like us REALLY aren't like us. Some people won't ever stop hating us no matter what...not much we can do about that. But the last thing we should be doing is validating their reasons for hating us.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

Let's face it, they're hugely outnumbered in that part of the world by people who aren't their biggest fans. Those people aren't listening to them anyway. Israel may be our friend, but I don't see risking our own safety for theirs as being a viable plan.

Shall i remind you about the 6 day war?

[GT40FIED]

Shall I remind you that I was using that in the context of their influence in that part of the world?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

Shall I remind you that I was using that in the context of their influence in that part of the world?

Probably since it wasn't stated a such.

[GT40FIED]

Well...not outright. I suppose I meant to imply it. But I'm too lazy to go fix it now...but you get the idea.