The brake thread - Civic/DelSol 92-00

[pdiggitydogg]

"I want bigger brakes," says...everyone. "What fits?" Well, Im going to tell you, the best I can. Of course, if you have more information...sharing is nice.

(Im going to assume everyone knows how brakes work, in general. If you dont, please check www.howstuffworks.com)

General:
Caliper piston size is what matters when talking about single piston brakes. The bigger your piston, the more surface area there is pressing onto the pad. Bigger pistons require more fluid to move them...to do that, a larger master cylinder is needed to push. By not changing the MC, when upgrading piston size, youre making the pedal travel a lot further to do its job.

Rotor size is also important. More surface area = more friction = more stopping power. The largest honda rotors are basically 11" diameter. Under that, is 10", and finally, 9".
(No, these are not exact measurements...just rounded figures for simplicity's sake.)
While we're talking about rotors, lets be honest about them...
Slotted and Cross-drilled rotors arent that great. Yes, they dissipate heat very well, and look flashy. However, today's pads are very good at what they do...they do not generate as much "junk" as older designs. And, in reality, if youre driving a street car, you dont need special rotors. Blanks (non-drilled/slotted) work just fine. Dont even get me started on slotted/drilled rotors in the rear.....thats just silly. Even the Nismo Skylines have blanks in the rear...what makes you think a Civic needs fancy slotted/drilled back there?

Pads? Yep, important. For the most part, OEM pads are fine; honda makes good stuff. I, however, like aggressive metallic pads because Im a brake freak and like to stop NOW. Rotor longevity be damned.
The 'grippier' a pad is, the sooner you will stop. Aggressive pads, however, are a double-edged sword. The stronger they stop, the more they wear themselves and the rotors...they also make a lot of noise and dust. Choose one based on what you think you need.

--
From this point forward:
Civic 92-95 = EG
Civic 96-00 = EK (Si = em1)
Del Sol 93-97 = EH (though eh is also eg...)
Integra 94-01 = DC (ITR will be...ITR...)

Size matters:
EG Caliper Piston Size:
Civic EX = Civic Si ABS (Ok, this Im not too sure about...Clarification?)
Civic DX/LX/VX/CX/Si (Si non-abs) < Civic EX
Civic Ex < Civic ABS
EG Rotor Size:
Civic DX/LX/VX/CX/Si (Si non-abs) - 9"
Civic EX/Si ABS - 10"

EH Caliper Piston Size:
Del Sol Si/S < Del Sel Vtec
Del Sol Vtec = Civic EX/Si
EH Rotor Size:
Del Sol Si/S - 9"
Del Sel Vtec - 10"

EK Caliper Piston Size:
Civic EX = Civic Si (aka em1)
Civic DX/LX/CX/HX < Civic EX/Si
Civic Ex/Si < Civic ABS
EK Rotor Size:
Civic EX/Si - 10"
Civic DX/LX/CX/HX - 9"
Civic ABS - 10"

DC Caliper Piston Size:
Integra GS = RS = GSR (Got it? GSR is NOT special!)
Integra < ITR
(While we're at it, CTR = ITR)
DC Rotor Size:
Integra GS/RS/GSR - 10"
ITR - 11"

Other Honda Caliper Piston Size
Prelude Vtec = ITR = Accord Wagon > Whats above
NSX/Legend = Biggest OEM Honda Brakes (These are 2-piston calipers)

Master Cylinders and Brake Boosters
Civic ex/si - 7/8"
Civic others - 13/16"
Civic ABS - 7/8"
Integra - 15/16"
ITR - 1"
Me? I went with the biggest...the ITR. The larger your MC the better your pedal will feel - the less distance it will travel, and the more efficiently the brakes will utilize the fluid. Bigger is ALWAYS better (unless you want crazy stiff pedal, equalling no feel)
MC's and BB's are counterparts...you cannot mix-and-match - Buy them as a set, if possible. The reason theyre not compatible is diaphram size and flange positioning. Even if you find a set, that are mixed, and have matching sets, they will not necessarily work together.

Cross-overs:
Integras are all ABS...they share the exact same size parts as their Civic ABS counterparts. Therefore, Civic ABS = Integra. (If you decide you want larger brakes on your abs civic, the only option you have is to go ITR (/similar) or NSX brakes.)

Knuckles
Not all Civic knuckles are the same...its the sad truth. What this means, is that not all parts are straight bolt-on.
EK Civic Ex/em1/ABS, EG Civic EX/Si(ABS)/ABS, EH Vtec, and Integras (all) share the same size knuckle. Meaning, all their parts are directly compatible with each other.
(Integra/Civic ABS brakes will bolt directly onto a Civic EX/SI or EH Vtec.)
All the rest of them (use your brains, Im not listing them all) have smaller knuckles (INCLUDES non-abs eg si!). (awww)
This means that when installing larger brakes, a knuckle from the other group is needed. That part, the knuckle, is directly compatible, however, and can be sourced from a Civic EX/em1/ABS or Integra)

Special Information on 11" rotors and NSX/ITR brakes
Though the NSX/ITR brakes do fit directly onto the Integra/Civic EX knuckle (others need to swap knuckles, as with integra calipers on say a civic dx)...an 11" rotor is needed, as well as some other stuff... Unfortunately, there is no 4x100 11" honda rotor (confirmed). To remedy this situation, buy rotors that are 5lug (for prelude vtec 92-96 - they are EXPENSIVE) and have them redrilled to fit our hubs (which is 4x100 remember). Another option, of course, is to fully convert to 5lug...
By choosing to redrill prelude vtec rotors, youre bypassing a hub-centering ring that is needed on itr or nsx rotors - Unfortunately, the rotor will need to be shimmed out, away from the hub (most agree on 1/8" wheel spacers), because of clearance issues with it and the caliper...this probably means extended lugs. If you dont need them with your wheels be glad - most people will need another set of 1/8" spacers for the caliper (NSX, ITR) to clear the wheel itself.
(Needless to say, your wheels are now 1/4" farther out than they were stock...hope youre not tucking into the fender well...)

Rear Disc
All rear trailing arms are IDENTICAL...even the drum brake ones. It is possible, therefore, to swap only the hubs when doing the conversion...many do this (I just find it easier to swap the entire arm w/ hub attached than to change them).
I want to make this really clear...Rear disc brakes from Integras, Del Sols, and Civics are all the same, and are directly interchangeable w/ each other. The only difference is the length of the parking cables...for those, use the ones that would best suit your vehicle (common sense here...use your brain).

Proportioning Valves
When changing to rear disc, from drums, it is highly recommended that you also change the prop valve (in most cases). Doing so, will allow the correct amount of brake fluid to feed the calipers.
For sake of simplicity, find one that comes from a car, of your generation, that has rear disc factory.
(IE -
EG people should buy one for an ex sedan abs or si hatch
EH people a Del Sol VTEC.
EK people (only those that drive coupes and sedans) an em1. EK hatches, share the same prop valve, ironically...dont ask why, I dont know.


I guess thats it...or all I can think of for right now. Oh, I want to reiterate the part about upgrading the master cylinder when upgrading the brakes...very important. My how-to on that can be found here: http://www.hstuners.com/forums/showt...threadid=20664

These are your brakes, guys. Its what stops you... Dont fuck around with them if you dont have a clue and remember...keep it as simple as possible.

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Personally, when it comes to brakes, I side with the views of these guys: http://www.stoptech.com/

Pay particular attention to this article: http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm

If you can memorize all this, you will be an expert: http://www.stoptech.com/technical/

[ShEaNy]

good info guys^^...i dont even wanna ask how long it took u to type that out Pdog..:o

[RxGoaT13]

this should be a sticky
good job guys.

[pdiggitydogg]

I originally had it as one, but since most people ignore them I thought it wouldnt get read. Eventually, I will sticky it again...

[Mischief]

thanks for the info pdig, lots of goodness in that read

[pdiggitydogg]

IMPORTANT
I left out some really needed info on the 11" rotors and nsx/itr brakes the first time around...fixed!
Please be sure to re-read if youre going that route!!

Props dude. Madd mof*ckin props.

Originally posted by BlackDeuceCoupe
Personally, when it comes to brakes, I side with the views of these guys

Dude where's the fun in that? I get more pride out of something I did myself. Could just be me though.

[AzCivic]

good write up pdiggs!!

personally i say just get some nice pads and be done w/ it, i think 99% of the people who own honda's dont need massive upgrades to their brakes. not to mention when they do upgrade, major headaches usually ensue. but hey thats just my opinion take it for what its worth, which might not be much.

[sicones]

what is a 90 crx considered EG, EK etc.?? that would be 89-91 civic, what about those brakes????

nice write up btw.

[pdiggitydogg]

that'd be an EF...and I have no idea what fits on those

[Mischief]

Would it be ok to pull the brake parts off cars in a junkyard? Or are they most likely, like the name suggests, junk? Hard to upgrade a car with less than 15 hours a week at a low paying job

[pdiggitydogg]

My parts are all "junk" yard parts.
As long as none of the parts are fused together, all that I would do is invest in a caliper reseal kit (cheap).
I would still purchase new rotors and pads though...why not

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by bigbear
I get more pride out of something I did myself....

And, what would that be?

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by AzCivic
good write up pdiggs!!

personally i say just get some nice pads and be done w/ it, i think 99% of the people who own honda's dont need massive upgrades to their brakes. not to mention when they do upgrade, major headaches usually ensue. but hey thats just my opinion take it for what its worth, which might not be much.

well i noticed that all hondas suck on brakes. they usually take about 10-15 ft longer to stop compared to an equally powered and sized car from any other manufacturer(gm excluded). plus most of them suffer from lots of brake fade really quick. so i think better rotors and pads are a must in the new brake setup

[AzCivic]

more often than not i bet those who "upgrade" get even crappier stopping distances. i think a good set of pads will take care of most brake fade.

Why don't you save the trolls for here instead of threads that should be stickied.

[sicones]

I think honda stock brakes are great compared to other manufacters mostly amarican drive a mustang and check those brakes its almost a hazard to the road

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by bigbear
Why don't you save the trolls for here instead of threads that should be stickied.

you got a response..now keep your bs posts that have nothing to do w/ the topic at hand, out.

furthermore, I'll interject my OPINION anywhere I see fit. pdigg's did a great write up, but I wanted to show people that maybe trying upgraded pads might be enough for most, while you have added..hmm not a damn thing. pdiggs when you sticky this again, go ahead and delete what you see fit.

[ebpda9]

good answer az.


anyway for the pads i will say EBC the green stuff are pretty damn good. they stopped my heavy ass accord on a dime (also warped my cheap ass rotors in less than a mile :( ) . too bad they last very little.

[AzCivic]

good pads and autozone rotors(lifetime warranty!) i hear from auto-x folks that its a great combination.

[pdiggitydogg]

my buddy uses autozone rotors on all 4 corners; I have them in the rear, currently. Theyre perfectly fine rotors!

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
my buddy uses autozone rotors on all 4 corners; I have them in the rear, currently. Theyre perfectly fine rotors!

OMG! What a h00t!

To make a long story short - a friend says his brakes are going out - takes forever to stop - afraid he's gonna have an accident. I said, take your ride to Brako and get a free estimate - $800 - needs everything. I say, good thing you aren't a girl - would be $1200...

I tell him, go to Autozone and buy everything they said needs to be replaced, and I'll install them. Autozone charges him $230 - new rotors, new drums, new pads, new shoes, bearings, seals, cylinder kits, blah, blah, blah.

I 'mike' the rotors and drums - never been turned. $40 labor to turn everything at NAPA - still in spec when done. $50 worth of Autozone parts used. Buddy takes the unused parts back to Autozone for refund - total cost 90 bones.

The thing is, I looked at the parts Autozone sold him, and the price[s], and I couldn't believe he got new rotors and drums for the price he did. Almost installed them for the hell of it. What a smoking deal!

Autozone rocks! I bought new pads for my wife's minivan there, last week. Semi-metallic, new not rebuilt, lifetime warranty, for $18.99!!! How the hell do they do it?

[AzCivic]

and they have a military discount!!(except on oil)

[Mischief]

my friend works there so I can get employee discounts too

[nonovurbizniz]

Just a couple of points... I believe the only preludes' with the ITR caliper up front are the 97+ SH's... not positive but I'm pretty sure..

I have those calipers in my basement... When I get around to doing them I'll post a write up...

Also keep in mind that brake LINES on rear disk swaps can be different... I used the stock 93 integra lines on my swap (to a 93 civic) however I had ordered the nonABS SI lines from honda and they DID NOT FIT...

Another thing to keep in mind if your going for the largest brakes is that you'll need 15"+ wheels... some 15's won't clear the caliper from the ITR/Lude much less the NSX/Legend ones... 16's may be needed...

I have Konig Helium 15's and they do just barely clear the ITR/Lude calipers although I haven't test fitted it with the caliper shimmed properly... but it should clear OK...

[Civic_RedLine]

I use the AEM big rotor kit that i bought off ebay for 200$ brand new limited black edition.
Had to upgrade to 16" rims in order to fit them.
One of the things I would like to say is, dont listen to all them people who say, " dont upgrade brakes because it only stops you!". I still went with big rotors on my 01 civic coupe. These brakes are awesome. I feel as if I got the most gain in my brakes than any other part I bought. If you do change brakes to nice ones, get good brake pads also because that will double the advantage.

If anyone is planning on getting the black aem rotors(discontinued), remember that the rotors wont stay black because once you use it, it will turn goldish color. I like that better than pure black though. You can see them.
Trust me though, get new brakes instead of buying used because they can be warped. My stock ones were warped and caused me to shake the steering wheel whenever i braked.
Id advise that if your brakes are fine, save some money and go with a different mod.

[thermal]

This is a great thread pdiggs..... I sent you a PM.....

[pdiggitydogg]

A change in rotor size, without changing the caliper/piston does very, very, VERY little as far as braking performance goes.

Ive stickied this...duh

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

I've been hearing good things about Hawk pads, so I decided to try a set (50 bones, if you're wondering). They're the "Official brake pads of the SCCA" for what it's worth. I figured, "How bad can they be?"

I got the HPS series pads. They're the 'softest' Ferro-Carbon pads that Hawk makes, and they supposed to be great for the street - not noisy like the track version[s]..

I haven't installed them yet - probably do it the morning - but these things look gnarly in the box...

• 

I went over to the Hawk web site. They said you MUST bed these puppies in, if you want them to work right. Everyone has an opinion on what 'bedding-in' means. I usually do a series of 10-15 quick stops, from around 50MPH, or until the pads start stinking, whichever comes first. Thankfully, Hawk spells it out for you.

Sunday morning sounds like a perfect time to do this...

What procedure does Hawk Performance recommend for burnishing brake pads for racing?

All brake pads have to be bedded-in with the rotor they will be used against. Even though Hawk Performance burnishes the pads in the factory, a transfer film must be generated at the pad and rotor interface for optimal performance. Whether it is new or used rotors, you must follow the bed-in steps listed below to maximize brake performance.

• Step 1. Seal all brake ducts.
  
• Step 2. Slowly engage brakes 6 to 8 times at medium speeds Do not drag brakes or come to a complete stop.
  
• Step 3. Increase speeds to simulate race conditions; allow 6 to 8 high pressure (about 500 psi) snubs at racing speeds. Total engagements for Step 2 and Step 3 should be a maximum of 15 to 20.
  
• Step 4. Remove brake duct seals. Allow the system to cool for about 15 minutes. Do not engage brakes while car is parked during cool down period. Your Rotors and Hawk Performance Pads are now ready for race! Do not sand or grind the brake pads or rotors after this burnishing procedure has been completed.

What is bed-in?

For optimal use of any given brake system, the pads and rotor have to be compatible with each other. The bed-in procedure establishes that compatibility between the pad and rotor. This is achieved by a combination of rubbing speed, temperature, line pressure, and Inertia. Bed-in is also influenced by pad and rotor material chemistries. It is always recommended that only compatible pads and rotors be used in any given application. Bedding in advantages:

• 1. Gradually heat treats the rotor and eliminates any thermal shock in the rotor.
  
• 2. Burn off volatiles and moisture from the resin that is near pad surface. This will eliminate “green fade.”
  
• 3. Establish a layer of transfer film about a few microns thick on the rotor surface. Shearing of the film during friction is an effective source of friction force. Otherwise, when using a freshly ground rotor without the transfer film, the main friction force would come from cutting, plowing, or scoring the asperities on the rotor surface. This leads to inconsistent braking effectiveness.
  
• 4. Mate the two surfaces to a near perfect geometrical match, so that the contact area is high, and therefore the friction force is increased.
  
• 5. The performance of a fresh rotor/fresh pad system would be inconsistent. This is due to ever-changing structures and properties of the two mating materials. Bed-in of pads and rotor will form a stable transfer film.
  
• 6. If bedding in procedure is not applied, a stable transfer film may not be established for a long time. In other words, the rotor surface would have to be constantly regenerating a film that is not quite stable for a long time. This effect would reduce the performance and increase the wear.

SOURCE: http://www.hawkperformance.com/home.cfm
EXTRA CREDIT: http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/bedincontents.htm

Anyone else around here running Hawk's?

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

I wasn't getting any action on this post, so I split it from the 'brake thread' for a while...

I decided to put my new workbench together Sunday, instead of doing the pads. I installed the Hawks tonight. Just got back from 'bedding' them in. LoL! It's 'nice' and stinky in the garage now. The workbench smells like 'green' wood, and my CiViC smells like burnt paint. What a combo...

Anyway, these things are gonna be sweet - I can tell already. No fad whatsoever! They bite really nice, but not enough to screw up the front/rear bias. They seem very nicely matched to the drums in the rear. I give 'em two thumbs up so far...

Check out the crazy wear patterns on the old pads...

• 

Down to the nub on one side, and probably 25% worn on the other...

[pdiggitydogg]

Ive always wanted to try the hawk pads, but when it comes down to new pad time I always forget which ones I wanted to get.

[JDMFantasy2k]

yeah i've heard a lot of good stuff about hawk as well so when its time for me to do brakes in the spring i'll probably pick up a set

[thermal]

that's awesome man. i heard great stuff about this product too. i was just scared to get them from ebay. i will surely try it on my Teg next time

[jd323]

I have ran hawk hp plus for my hybrid galant vr-4 brake setup for the past two brake lifes on my 323. I can say nothing bad about these pads as they are very good. No fade, major bite, and excellent brake feel. No worries! Running track days are not a problem and they are excellent on the street. The only downside for the hp pluses is that they get your wheels very dusty very quickly. HPS pads are just what you need, I recommend them.

[AzCivic]

thanks for the info BDC, do they make rears for civics that have rear disc's too?

[ebpda9]

i had a set of them installed on the fronts of my teg. i like them, but i get brake fade sometimes. never tried bedding them. I have a new set of rotors sitting at my home and i was kinda deciding on pads

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Well, I've had these things on my ride for about a week - around 800 miles on them - and I'm perfectly happy...

This has been a weird week, I guess. I've driven on the street and on the highway (day 'n' night), in dry conditions (70 degress and sunshine), and in flood conditions (tornado warnings - hail - 1/4 mile visibility, et cetera) - you name it.

'Bite' is the word for these pads. Backing out of my driveway in reverse, stone cold, they screech like a banshee when you first apply the brakes - but that's it. After that, going down the street, they are perfectly quiet. So, what does that tell me? These aren't Grandpa's brakes! They are the 'real' thing...

When you use these things aggressively, mashing down the pedal, they'll make your CiViC stand up on the front-end, but they won't throw the bias off enough to lock-up the rear wheels, even though you can tell they're right on the verge. LoL! What a great feeling these things have! No stiff pedal - no fad - no nothing - they just feel great!

Having read a lot of threads about Hawks, during the last week, I would judge that HPS +'s are the way to go, if you are into Autocross and so forth. They are reportedly a great street/track crossover pad. Sure, HPS +'s dust your wheels like crazy, with corrosive effects on your alloy wheels, and make more noise, et cetera, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Hawk 'track pads' are supposed to be even worse for noise, dust, rotor wear, and pad wear, so I definitely wouldn't suggest going that route unless you're planning on going to Daytona or Le Mans. However, for steet use, regular HPS's should work just fine for you.

For street driving, I give Hawk HPS's two thumbs-up, so far! They are definitely several notches above OEM organics, and afford a noticeable and marked difference in performance, without any downside. The jury is still out on rotor wear. HPS's are supposed to be rotor-friendly, but I have a hard time believing that at this point. They work too good - something has to be wearing somewhere. Whatever! Rotors are cheap...

By all accounts, these pads are supposed to be very similar to Axxis Metalmasters, Porterfield R4S's, yada, yada, yada. Who knows? I haven't tried them all. All I know is I like these Hawk HPS's just fine...

[mariesmith]

Great! You are so nice!

[1unoevo8]

I think honda stock brakes are great compared to other manufacters mostly amarican drive a mustang and check those brakes its almost a hazard to the road