Really?

[GT40FIED]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070319/..._pr_wh/us_iraq

So Bush thinks victory in Iraq will "take months"? Wow...I don't know what to say. He makes me feel, for the first time in my life, that I'm ashamed to be an American. Part of being a real man means you admit when you fucked up. You take the responsibility that is yours to bare and you deal with it. It's bee a few years since Bush landed on an aircraft carrier and declared "mission accomplished" (tell that to the men and women who have since died) and it would appear he's the only one that doesn't get that this war is over and that we have lost. Now he means to tell us that 4 years into this fuck up it's only going to take months to get shit under control? Fuck him. I hope someone rapes his alcoholic ass. I mean really...rape is no laughing matter...but I really do wish it upon him Such a statement is an insult to the intelligence of every thinking American and to every troop in service right now, some of whom happen to be my friends. Fuck...Saddam had more control over Iraq than we do now, and we killed his ass for...well...I'm not exactly sure what for. Maybe he missed a payment to us. In closing....Mr. Bush....fuck you. You may have the ability to pen hateful threats, but you don't have the ability to hold a sword. You're a drunken, washed up excuse for a man and you should be ashamed of yourself and every word that comes from your lying mouth. There is a special place in hell for people like you and I can only hope that the remaining people who still support you have the good sense to realize what a big blubbering twat you truely are.

[Violent Apathy]

Yeah most the people there liked it better under saddam, they don't give a shit about being able to vote now. At least before they didn't have to worry about getting blown up or shot by one of us every time they step outside.

[CD5Passion]

the fact of the matter is no one anywhere should ever be able to try to pin one's own morals and principles on any other person. Or in this matter, any other culture

[Violent Apathy]

Originally Posted by CD5Passion

the fact of the matter is no one anywhere should ever be able to try to pin one's own morals and principles on any other person. Or in this matter, any other culture

Considering that's been going on for however long humans have been around I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[GT40FIED]

Yeah...I gotta go with Victor on that one. People like to push people around. It's just what they do (often). I think the bigger problem is that we're still throwing money and lives into this no-win situation. That, and no one is willing to stand up and say "you know what...we screwed up". We attacked a country that did not provoke us in any way, shape, or form with the basis of our cause being an outright lie. Then we removed a man that was supposedly so wicked that it justified a multi-billion dollar manhunt to bring him. I'm not going to debate that Saddam was a bad guy, but let's face it...Iraq was much better off before he was gone. Dictatorships are pretty much all those people know and democracy won't work for them. Period. So now that we've killed over 150,000 civilians (not counting "insurgents") and not done what we said we'd do, it's time to dump even more money and man power into this? We're also going to have to deal with a whole new generation of fucked up (mentally and physically) veterans that didn't need to end up that way. I know a friend of mine just got home and is seperated from the Army and he's not the same guy anymore. This is AFTER his whole PTSD stuff in Germany. This country is swirling the fucking drain.

[V8killimports]

I know.. Hillary is going to kick some ass. My problem is who to vote for.. Hillary, Obama.. and god help me if Gore or Kerry run again. I'll never be able to decide.
Here is al-Qaeda's stated goal:

...includes establishing a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems “non-Islamic”, and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries.

So if you think this will ever end regardless of Iraq think again. Denying al-Qaeda and other groups from having a foothold on an entire country have it's advantages.

[V8killimports]

Originally Posted by Violent Apathy

Yeah most the people there liked it better under saddam, they don't give a shit about being able to vote now. At least before they didn't have to worry about getting blown up or shot by one of us every time they step outside.

This is incorrect. Please show us your sources.

[GT40FIED]

Look Mike...this war is a lost cause. Deal with it. I was talking to a friend of mine who just got back from Iraq and detached 2 weeks ago and he told me pretty much the same thing as Victor has said. If only we could get back to the pre-Saddam-capture violence levels then we'd be good. These people will never be able to handle democracy. "Purple finger day" was just a show for cameras. Everything that shows Iraqis in positive support for our troops is a show for cameras. Did it ever occur to you that after so many decades under a dictatorship rule that people will say they love whatever element is in power? As soon as we leave (which is never if Bush has his way), fucking Iceland could invade and take over and the people would say they love Iceland. The people there are only loyal to the folks that have the guns. Period. The second whatever occupying force leaves they'll be at each other's throats again in a matter of seconds. The sooner we realize that and the sooner we pack up and leave means the sooner we can start saving American lives.

[V8killimports]

I could really care less about the war at this point. I do what I do because it's my job. I have been on EIGHT deployments there now and I see what everyone else does.

WWII also became unpopular after a while, and people wanted to pull out of that as well.. wars are unpopular because they are war. Bush is the first war time president to win a re-election I believe.

[Violent Apathy]

Originally Posted by V8killimports

This is incorrect. Please show us your sources.

No sources other than me. This is just what I saw in the 5 months i spent living out in the middle of Tal Afar and the 9 months living in downtown Ramadi.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by V8killimports

WWII also became unpopular after a while, and people wanted to pull out of that as well.. wars are unpopular because they are war. Bush is the first war time president to win a re-election I believe.

I think it's a tad unfair to compare Iraq to WWII. First of all, WWII was actually a war...Iraq isn't. Call it a police action or whatever you want...we never declared war. The reason WWII became unpopular was because people were asked to sacrifice...a lot. At first they did it gladly but after a while, like most people would, they started to want the things they used to have back. Plus, I'll be fucked if I'm starting a war garden.

I really think that's why people here don't get this war. They haven't had to really connect to it. They haven't had to give anything up for it (aside from a good number of civil liberties). Hell...people have actually been told to go out and consume MORE so the terrorists don't win (big anti-terror sale at Best Buy!!!!). Even though many of us who don't serve have friends or family who do (I have both), you really only see them on their mid-tour 2 week leave and when you do actually talk to them I'm sure the fighting is the last thing they wanna talk about. If anyone here actually had to stare this war in the face I believe we would've pulled out a long time ago.