war has started...

Originally posted by oc civic
theres no arguing saddam is bad in referance to OUR culture, the ONLY argument is where our juristiction ends... when we start intentionaly changing governments around the world, subsequently altering cultures.. i guess my concern is where does it end...

can a nation stand by and allow a leader to murder his people? It is when all other efforts have been used and failed that war must be used.
Lets not forget its been 10 years of trying to change the country, 10 years of BS from saddam and hidden weapons. Need I remind you that he wasn't supposed to have those scuds that he fired recently.

When this is all over we're going to hear stories that are similar to the ones from ww2. I'm not joking, I dont know what type of news you get in the US but from what i've been reading and hearing from people who fled Iraq this man is pure evil. Rape rooms where women are rapped infront of their families in attempts to try and get information out of them. The beating to death of people who think saddam could do things differently. The list goes on and I would rather not type this all out... do your research people, whats happening now HAD to be done.... full stop end of story.

How about this, you dont have the right to b!tch about this because your ass is safely planted in the USA! The only people that have the right to b!tch and protest are the ones called up to service. The rest of you should shut your F U CKING mouths and be thankful someones doing your dirty work.

Originally posted by mt.biker
can a nation stand by and allow a leader to murder his people? It is when all other efforts have been used and failed that war must be used.
Lets not forget its been 10 years of trying to change the country, 10 years of BS from saddam and hidden weapons. Need I remind you that he wasn't supposed to have those scuds that he fired recently.

When this is all over we're going to hear stories that are similar to the ones from ww2. I'm not joking, I dont know what type of news you get in the US but from what i've been reading and hearing from people who fled Iraq this man is pure evil. Rape rooms where women are rapped infront of their families in attempts to try and get information out of them. The beating to death of people who think saddam could do things differently. The list goes on and I would rather not type this all out... do your research people, whats happening now HAD to be done.... full stop end of story.

How about this, you dont have the right to b!tch about this because your ass is safely planted in the USA! The only people that have the right to b!tch and protest are the ones called up to service. The rest of you should shut your F U CKING mouths and be thankful someones doing your dirty work.

WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP FORGETTING THAT WE (specifically the bush family **bush senior**) PUT SADDAM WHERE HES AT......

AND no one is doing "MY DIRTY WORK" they are doing the bush family dirty work.. cleaning up a BUSH family mistake... i didn't vote for EITEHER bush, and i SURE as hell did not vote to send money and weapons to saddam... SSSOOO... its not MY DIRTY WORK...and youd rather not type it all out because you dont know... i dont know either..



anyone here know what the word propaganda means?

[Racing Rice]

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
Date: 1718
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
- pro·pa·gan·dist /-dist/ noun or adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·tic /-"gan-'dis-tik/ adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

1. Adams, James. Florida. Adams was convicted of first-degree murder, sentenced to death, and executed in 1984. A witness identified Adams as driving the car away from the victim's home shortly after the crime. This witness, however, was driving a large truck in the direction opposite to that of Adams' car, and it was later discovered that this witness was angry with Adams for allegedly dating his wife. A second witness the day after the crime stated that the fleeing person was positively not Adams. A hair sample found clutched in the victim's hand, which in all likelihood had come from the assailant, did not match Adams’ hair.

2. Anderson, William Henry. Florida Anderson was convicted of the rape of a white woman, sentenced to death, and executed in 1945 without an appeal having been made. The victim had not resisted, screamed, or used an available pistol to resist Anderson's advances. Anderson and the victim had been consensually intimate for several months before rape charges were filed.

3. Applegate, Everett. New York. Applegate was convicted, with Francis Q. Creighton, of the murder of Applegate's wife; both were sentenced to death in 1936. Creighton had been tried and acquitted on two separate occasions for similar murders a dozen years before she met Applegate. In this case, she killed the victim (by arsenic poisoning) at Applegate's instigation. "Virtually no evidence against Applegate existed beyond Mrs. Creighton's unsupported word." Governor Herbert Lehman, who had doubts about Applegat's guilt, requested the prosecutor's support for clemency for Applegate; it was not forthcoming, and clemency was denied.

4. Bambrick, Thomas. New York. Bambrick was convicted of murder, and sentenced to death. Evidence was later discovered that convinced Warden Thomas Mott Osbourne and the prison chaplain that another man had committed the crime. Osbourne commented "It is almost as certain that Bambrick is innocent as that the sun will rise tomorrow."

5-6. Becker, Charles and Frank ("Dago") Cirofici. New York. Becker and Cirofici were convicted of murder; Cirofici was executed in 1914 and Becker in 1915. The victim, Rosenthal, was a gambling house owner. He was convicted largely on the testimony of gamblers and ex-convicts in the glare of extensive newspaper publicity about police corruption. Former Sing Sing warden, Thomas Mott Osbourne, who knew the closet friends of the gunmen, stated that these friends all agreed Cirofici had nothing to do with the murder and was not even present when it occurred. Warden Osbourne also believed that Becker was not guilty.

7. Collins, Roosevelt. Alabama. Collins was convicted of rape, sentenced to death, and executed in 1937. Collins testified that the victim the "victim" had consented, which caused a near-riot in the courtroom. The all-white jury deliberated for only four minutes. Subsequent interviews with several jurors revealed that although they believed the act was consensual, they also thought Collins deserved to death simply for "messin’ around" with a white woman. Even the judge, off the record, admitted his belief that Collins was telling the truth. "An innocent man went to his death."

8. Dawson, Sie. Florida. Dawson was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to death. The conviction by an all-white male jury was based on a confession obtained from Dawson after he had spent more then a week in custody without the assistance of counsel and on an accusation by the victim's husband. Dawson had an I.Q. of 64. At trial, Dawson repudiated his confession, claiming it was given only because "the white officers told him to say he killed Mrs. Clayton or they'd give him to "the mob’ outside." There were no eyewitnesses and the circumstantial evidence was slight and inconclusive.

9. Garner, Vance. Alabama. With Jack Hunter and Will Johnson, Garner was convicted of murder and sentenced to death. No appeals were undertaken. Garner had maintained his complete innocence, while Hunter admitted his own guilt and absolved both Garner and Johnson. Johnson's sentence was later commuted to life, but Garner was executed in 1905.

10-11. Grezchowiak, Stephen and Max Rybarczyk. New York. Grezchowiak and Rybarczyk were both convicted of felony murder and sentenced to death. Co-defendant Alexander Bogdanoff insisted that neither Grezchowiak nor Rybarczyk had been involved in the crime, and that each had been mistakenly identified by the eyewitnesses. He refused, however, to reveal the names of his true accomplices. In their final words, they maintained their innocence, and Bogdanoff again declared that the two were innocent.

12. Hauptmann, Bruno Richard. New Jersey. Hauptmann was convicted of felony-murder-burglary, sentenced to death, and executed in 1936. He was infamous as the ransom-kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby. Although Governor Hoffman believed that Hauptmann was framed, he chose not to halt the execution. There is no doubt that the conviction rested in part on corrupt prosecutorial practices, suppression of evidence, intimidation of witnesses, prejured testimony, and Hauptmann's prior record.

13. Hill, Joe. Utah. Hill was convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of two storekeepers. The prosecution was based on sketchy circumstantial evidence and was in part the result of collusion between the prosecution and the trial judge in an atmosphere of anti-union hostility. Despite several appeals from President Woodrow Wilson to the Utah authorities for a reprieve, Hill was denied a new trial. Hill appears to have been an innocent victim of "politics, finance and organized religion, a powerful trinity"; his conviction and death are "one of the worst travesties of justice in American labor history."

14. Lamble, Harold. New Jersey. Lamble was convicted and sentenced to death. After the execution, Governor Edward Edwards refused requests to appoint a special counsel to investigate the case, despite what the New York Times called a "rather widespread fear that perhaps" Lamble was innocent. Lamble's attorney was disbarred for mishandling the defense.

15. Mays, Maurice F. Tennessee. Mays was convicted of murder in the killing of a white woman and sentenced to death. Mays’ conviction rested on the testimony of a police officer who had disliked him for years and on the testimony of an eyewitness who never got a clear look at the killer. On appeal, the conviction was reversed because the judge, rather than the jury, had fixed the penalty at death. Mays was retried, reconvicted, and resentenced to death. In 1922, Mays was executed, still maintaining his innocence. In 1926, the real killer confessed in a written statement that revealed she was a white woman who had dressed up as a black man to kill the woman with whom her husband was having an affair.

16. McGee, Willie. Mississippi. McGee was convicted of the rape of a white woman and sentenced to death by an all-white jury that deliberated for only two and a half minutes. the chief evidence against him was a coerced confession that he gave after being held incommunicado for thirty-two days after his arrest; the victim's husband and her two children, asleep in the next room, never heard any commotion from the alleged attack. The victim had been consorting with McGee for four years and was angry at his efforts to terminate their relationship. Nonetheless, local blacks were too intimidated to give this evidence in court, and local whites felt the woman's consent was impossible or irrelevant. McGee was executed in 1951.

17-18. Sacco, Nicola, and Bartolomeo Vanzetti. Massachusetts. Sacco and Vanzetti were convicted of murder in the course of armed robbery, sentenced to death, and executed in 1927. Their case is probably the most controversial death penalty case in this century. They were arrested and tired in an atmosphere dominated by "the Red Scare" of the early 1920s. In 1925, another man also under the death sentence in Massachusetts confessed to the crime. Extensive investigation of the confession convinced many that he was, indeed, telling the truth. In 1926, the trial judge denied motions for a retrial based on the confession. In 1977, on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of the executions, Governor Dukakis signed a carefully worded proclamation intended to remove "any stigma and disgrace" from their names.

19. Sanders, Albert. Alabama. Sanders was convicted with Fisher Brooks of murder and sentenced to death. Though he had nothing to gain by helping Sanders, Brooks testified at Sander's trial that Sanders was innocent. Another fellow prisoner testified that he had heard Sanders confess, however, and both Brooks and Sanders were executed in 1918. In a statement from the scaffold, Brooks again insisted on Sanders’ innocence.

20. Sberna, Charles. New York. Sberna was convicted of first-degree murder of a police officer. His codefendant, Salvatore Gati, testified at the trial that Sberna was innocent. Gati also said the head of the New York Homicide Bureau had told him that he knew Sberna was innocent, and would clear his name if Gati would reveal the name of his real accomplices. Gati refused to do this. Sberna and Gati were both wrongfully executed in 1938. The prison chaplain said of Sberna, "This is the first time I’ve ever been positive that an innocent man was going to the chair."

21. Shumway, R. Mead. Nebraska. Shumway was convicted of the first-degree murder of his employer's wife on circumstantial evidence and sentenced to death. One juror, the only one to hold out against the death penalty, told his friends he "had not slept well any night since the trial." He later left a note in which he expressed "great worry at the trial," and he then killed himself. In 1910, the victim's husband confessed on his deathbed that he had murdered his wife.

22. Tucker, Charles Louis. Massachusetts. Tucker was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to death in 1905. More than 100,000 Massachusetts residents signed petitions on behalf of clemency. Among those convinced of his innocence was the county medical examiner and a clergyman who said a witness had told him she perjured herself at the original trial. Tucker was nonetheless executed in 1906.

23. Wing, George Chew. New York. Wing was convicted of first-degree murder (after a 30-minute trial) and sentenced to death. While he was in prison awaiting execution, Wing convinced several observers that he had been falsely identified by eyewitnesses and that perjured testimony had been used against him. Warden Lewis Lawes also questioned his guilt, but Wing was nonetheless executed in 1937.


heres 23 INNOCENT people our US legal system WRONGLY put to DEATH.

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
Date: 1718
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
- pro·pa·gan·dist /-dist/ noun or adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·tic /-"gan-'dis-tik/ adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

good job....

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by oc civic
good job....

It was rough but I managed..

yeah we don't rape and torture our own people when they disagree.. we just kill them.. lol

[Wren57]

i havent read every post because that would take too long but I read the last few pages and I can't believe the nonsense some of you people say. Where does our jurisdiction end? Hello, people are being killed if they don't vote a certain way in Iraq, but I guess we should be ignorant and ignore the problem and it will just go away. Wake up little girl, the world is becoming more and more globalized by the day and we must change our policies to embrace this globalization or get left behind and destroyed by rogue nations. If this doesn't convince you, how about the Iraqi troops surrendering and the townpeople dancing in the streets as US troops roll through... yeah they definately love Saddam ... get an education, then we'll talk

Originally posted by highlander
i havent read every post because that would take too long but I read the last few pages and I can't believe the nonsense some of you people say. Where does our jurisdiction end? Hello, people are being killed if they don't vote a certain way in Iraq, but I guess we should be ignorant and ignore the problem and it will just go away. Wake up little girl, the world is becoming more and more globalized by the day and we must change our policies to embrace this globalization or get left behind and destroyed by rogue nations. If this doesn't convince you, how about the Iraqi troops surrendering and the townpeople dancing in the streets as US troops roll through... yeah they definately love Saddam ... get an education, then we'll talk

maybe you should learn how to read... i said IM NOT SAYING HE SHOULD NOT BE OUT OF OFFICE...but i also don't think him being removed from power is worth killing our trrops.. get an education??? HOW DID HE GET TO WHERE HES AT?? do you know our role in his advances???

Originally posted by highlander
people are being killed if they don't vote a certain way in Iraq

yeah we are much smarter.. we figured we will just let people vote and have it not matter.. lol we say "ok american people who do you want for president" and they say "NOT BUSH.. " lol and the government says "OK thank's for voting.. introducing the NEW president of the united states george bush.."

but hey.. at least we don't kill people

Protest rage grows over Mugabe militia rape, torture camps
March 23 2003
The Sun-Herald





Zimbabwe's Movement for Democratic Change yesterday vowed to escalate mass action to force President Robert Mugabe's government to reform or leave office as new and horrifying details of young girls being held in "rape camps" emerged.

A two-day national strike late last week was the biggest protest for more than two years against Mr Mugabe's 23-year rule, closing factories, shops, banks and other businesses in protest at alleged human rights abuses and the economic decline.

As the strike ended, reports emerged of rape being used as a political weapon by the youth militia and other groups allied to the country's ruling party, said human rights workers and church groups.

Investigations reveal allegations of politically motivated rape against opposition supporters.

According to victims' testimony, Mr Mugabe's militia are also forcing young women to be their concubines.


Zimbabwe's human rights forum reports seven cases of politically motivated rape last year, as well as 58 murders and 1061 cases of torture. But the reported rapes, verified by medical examinations and interviews, are just the tip of the iceberg, human rights workers say.

"There is a serious problem of political rape in Zimbabwe," said Tony Reeler, human rights defender for the Institute for Democratic Alternatives for Southern Africa. "The documented cases are low, but there is considerable stigma and fear about reporting rape. From enormous anecdotal evidence we know the number is much higher.

"The victims are mostly young females, relatively uneducated, poor, rural, the most vulnerable members of society. Many urgently require antiretrovirals for HIV infection."

The trauma of rape is evident in the dull gaze of Sithulisiwe, 21. For eight months she was held captive at a "youth camp" for Mr Mugabe's ruling Zanu-PF party, where, she says, she was repeatedly gang raped and tortured. She said she was abducted in December 2001 and marched to a camp in a Bulawayo suburb.

"It was surrounded by security guards so we could not get out," she said. "There were hundreds of us. We were fed horse meat and rotten food. They woke us up at 3am and we had to run 20 kilometres. Then we had to do 200 press-ups and other exercises. If anyone failed to do so, they were beaten. We had to chant slogans and sing Zanu-PF songs.

"They taught us the history of our country, starting from colonial slavery, and they told us we should hate whites. We slept in large rooms, the men and women together. We were raped by the boys. I can't even count how many times by how many different men. If we complained to the camp commander, we were beaten."

Sithulisiwe says she felt sorry for the young girls, of just 12 and 13, picked out, by the camp commander and taken to a nearby hotel to be raped. Her voice is flat and only when she talks to her five-month-old child does her face light up. "I have named her Nokthula, which means peace. I want her to find peace - imagine, I do not even know who her father is."

Sithulisiwe and others were caught trying to escape. She says they were buried up to their necks. "We were beaten and thought we'd be killed, but the camp commander rescued us. They made us roll in mud, then would not let us take a bath."

The camp closed in July last year. Many of the youths went to government training camps and Sithulisiwe was sent away. Aided by a church group, she and other women then reported the rapes at Hillside police station near Bulawayo.

"Then the doctor gave me a blood test. He told me I was HIV-positive."

Her story has been independently verified. This month she testified at a service led by Archbishop Pius Ncube at the Bulawayo Catholic cathedral. People across Zimbabwe told of rape and torture at the hands of Zanu-PF.

"We have several reports of gang rapes and beatings at the youth militia camps," said a human rights worker. "The camps have become centres of torture and sexual abuse. Reports are made to police but they take virtually no action."

Zimbabwe's police deny this. "Irrespective of whether they are political cases or not, if they are true rape cases then we will investigate them," said Wayne Bvudzijena, an assistant commissioner. He was not aware of reports of rape at the Bulawayo camps.

But investigations have revealed other accounts of politically motivated sexual violence.

Rebecca, 36, says youth militia dragged her from her home in eastern Zimbabwe. "They beat me, saying I wanted to give the country back to whites. Six guys raped me. These people threatened to kill me and my family. I am afraid I may be infected with HIV."

Sarah, 22, from central Zimbabwe, tells how Zanu-PF youth attacked the homestead where she farmed. "They burned our house and destroyed everything we owned. They beat me, even though I had our baby on my back. They took my baby away. They beat the soles of my feet. Then, they raped me."









SO guys when are we gonna attack Zimbabwe.. i mean we ARE in the business of freeing the worlds oppressed now??? and eliminating torture pain and rape...

SO i ask again.. when does it stop??? do we invade zimbabwe??

[Racing Rice]

Woohoo lets do it tomorrow!!:o

[ChrisCantSkate]

im free wensday

[AzCivic]

15 pages, maybe someday I'll read all of it.

If you all are still ranting on and on about the damn war and how you dont like it, get over it. Its happening now deal with it.

[DsBlu01CivEX]

Ok...so I got to the end of page 8 and I had to stop reading. We're never all gonna agree about this topic...but as "Americans" we should ALL be supporting our troops that are fighting in Iraq. I'm not a huge fan of war or fighting and think that things should be handled in a diplomatic fashion at all costs ("war" should be an absolute last option). The US put Saddam in power and he turned into an oppressive dictator...we are now trying to "fix" that by our creatively named "Operation Iraqi Freedom". Notice I DIDN'T call it a war. That is not "officially" what it is. Bush NEVER once said in his address to the nation that he was declaring war on Iraq. So what is currently going on in Iraq is NOT a war...I repeat NOT A WAR. So...I really wish everyone would stop calling it a war and call it what it really is...."a liberating of the Iraqi people"


I'm the first one that wants Saddam out of power (and a few choice others mentioned previously that I won't go into) but my question is....do the Iraqi citizens really want to be "liberated" by the Americans? From what I understand...I highly doubt it.


*oh and just a side note....NO one in this thread has a right to get on another person's @ss for spelling errors.

Hell yeah if wut oc civic said was true, I think we should attack Zimbabwe's govt.. I know we can't fix everything in the world but if we have the power to fix such large attrocities(sp) I think we should.

Originally posted by JTsn2Bfst
Hell yeah if wut oc civic said was true, I think we should attack Zimbabwe's govt.. I know we can't fix everything in the world but if we have the power to fix such large attrocities(sp) I think we should.

zimbabwe is JUST one.. the list is huge.. there are MORE countries than you can imagine that are like zimbabwe...

i personaly would rather clean up our major citys and provide for our own than wage war on zimbabwe (just an example)

i personaly think that us having homeless starving people, AND 1.4million dollar bombs is REDICULOUS...

Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX

*oh and just a side note....NO one in this thread has a right to get on another person's @ss for spelling errors.

Yeah, al yu KCnkuckleheads knead tooo lern how 2 spel !

True that, i shouldnt talk - i even spelled college (colledge) wrong and im in college

[DsBlu01CivEX]

Originally posted by oc civic
zimbabwe is JUST one.. the list is huge.. there are MORE countries than you can imagine that are like zimbabwe...

i personaly would rather clean up our major citys and provide for our own than wage war on zimbabwe (just an example)

Not to make this a political thing....but this is just an observation....but I'd be shocked if you told me you weren't a Democrat.

Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX
Not to make this a political thing....but this is just an observation....but I'd be shocked if you told me you weren't a Democrat.

you pegged me a LITTLE wrong..

not some tree hugging hippie.. IN FACT i belive in needed war, in FACT, i play paintball every weekend (which some argue is SIMULATED war), im very against overbearing gun control, and do not believe the solution to the worlds problems is a big hug and recycling.. lol

i can HONESTLY say i have sided with democratic AND republican feelings depending on the issue... i don't belive now a days you can honestly say you are one or the other... ALTHOUGH a guess id be MORE for democrats than republicans.. but its a pretty even split..

[ebpda9]

maybe i should say something about the issue. i wasn't born here for those that didn't know. I lived for about 9 years under communism, and ofcourse i think i was too young to undertsand some things, but i tell you this for sure that the ppl of iraq cannot free themselves. the fall of communism in romania many say it was because of the popular revolt, but in fact it was an american hand in there. not war but with the help of inteligence. and when it all started guess where ceasusecu was ??? iraq then he came back and got caught, then shot. anyway because romania and iraq were very close countries since iraq had a lot of contacts with the romanian factoris and i know someone who worked in there, and made the solid fuel for their missiles, and if one batch of fuel went kaboom it would have wiped everything on a 70km radius. after '90 i really don't know what happened because the factory became an army factory and everyone working there had to have security clearance

[DsBlu01CivEX]

Originally posted by oc civic
you pegged me a LITTLE wrong..

not some tree hugging hippie.. IN FACT i belive in needed war, in FACT, i play paintball every weekend (which some argue is SIMULATED war), im very against overbearing gun control, and do not believe the solution to the worlds problems is a big hug and recycling.. lol

i can HONESTLY say i have sided with democratic AND republican feelings depending on the issue... i don't belive now a days you can honestly say you are one or the other... ALTHOUGH a guess id be MORE for democrats than republicans.. but its a pretty even split..

I'd have to agree with ya there....you're arguments sound more "democratic" than the rest though....that's all I was sayin.

This thread is real long. . . . . .

Anyways, i have been watching CNN eversince this thread started, and i'd have to say that this imbedded reporting strategy is doing a good job keeping people informed.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX

I'm the first one that wants Saddam out of power (and a few choice others mentioned previously that I won't go into) but my question is....do the Iraqi citizens really want to be "liberated" by the Americans? From what I understand...I highly doubt it.

Well it looks like the people are trying to rebel against the saddam regime and look what their army is doing...killing them. So i guess you cant judge whether or not the Iraqi people want to be liberated without living there under Saddam's rule with constant fear of being killed.

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by AzCivic
Well it looks like the people are trying to rebel against the saddam regime and look what their army is doing...killing them. So i guess you cant judge whether or not the Iraqi people want to be liberated without living there under Saddam's rule with constant fear of being killed.

yeah, true that. i know that happened in 1989 in Romania