wow.. talk about a world coming together

Originally posted by highlander


and did nobody notice that he was elected UNANIMOUSLY by election recently? Please, dont try to convince me that was legit

did you notice that in the last US presidential election we did NOT elect Bush, but yet he is still in office... ITS THE SAME... we have this BS voting but popular vote doesn't mean shit... so whats your point??? do you really NOT think US elections are fixed? i hope you have more sense than that

Originally posted by highlander


Sadaam is a terrorist to his own people and, if given more time to increase his bio/chem/nuclear weapons he will be a terrorist to the world

but our ex coke head president is permitted to have nuclear bombs.. yeah that seams logical..

Originally posted by highlander
I actually agree w/ Mt. Biker on this one
I dont have the patience to be as long-winded as Biker, but shall try to be concise:

1) UN rules said Sadaam can not have these missles
2) Sadaam has missles that exceed the UN requirement, and some have been found with liquid, yes LIQUID inside them and the cheif UN weapons inspector demanded he remove them

if this isnt enough, how about some more hard info:

1) Sadaam has history of creating volatility in the region
2) Sadaam attempted genocide on the turks in the north of his own country
3) the US didnt put him in power, but silently funded him in the war against Iran
4) He has a long-standing grudge against the US, but is laying-low trying to buy time to create an arsenal capable of mass destruction- no he doesnt have this now, but picture him as say a velociraptor... you wanna kill it while its still an egg or wait for it to hatch and *hope* that it will be nice, even though all other velociraptors aren't...

ok thats too much typing for me for one post... Ill respond to this later...

the missles were tested without the aditional weight of a war head (for obious reasons) BUT there is no way to get an accurate reading due to the change in weight..... i think you are smart enough to understand that...

AND ANYWAY they have agreed to destroy the missles to please are dictator of a leader...

Originally posted by highlander
and some have been found with liquid, yes LIQUID inside them

if you re read this out loud you MIGHT realize how silly it sounds..

Originally posted by mt.biker
oc civic so far it sounds like you just dont want to do anything about the problem in Iraq and hope it all smooths over.

no you are wrong.. i want to go to war for JUST causes... IF the UN decides war is necisary due to FACTUAL evidence then im all for it.. im NOT for random crusades against countries that pose NO REAL military threat...

the fact is we should NOT babysit any nation... we went in in 91 did whatever and now its back... its simply NOT our job to meddle in the affairs of iraq.. you don't see us pulling this shit in china... thats because we know better.. china is equally opressed if not more.. but if we pulled this shit there they would bring it.. i just think its absurd that ANY of you are saying that a missle whos range is slightly more than 93 miles justifies OUR involvement with iraq... do any of you realize the distance from here to iraq.. they pose NO JUSTIFYABLE threat...

[AzCivic]

If you have a problem with our election system why dont you move to ****ing Iraq and see how theirs is. Maybe you'll meet your Idol Saddam Hussein while your there, and if your real lucky he'll deny your family food unless you join his army.

Originally posted by AzCivic
If you have a problem with our election system why dont you move to ****ing Iraq and see how theirs is. Maybe you'll meet your Idol Saddam Hussein while your there, and if your real lucky he'll deny your family food unless you join his army.

your an idiot...

do you really NOT think that our election system is flawed... do you understand electoral voting and how it started.. WHY is it still in place??? hmm i can't figure it out.. saddam is NOT my idol.... its funny because you are all freedom this freedom that, but the SECOND someone says something you don't agree with... utilizing there freedom to express themselves.. there freedom to disagree with the government you want to kill them or exile them.. weren't you just preaching about freedom and fighting for it...

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by oc civic
your an idiot...

do you really NOT think that our election system is flawed... do you understand electoral voting and how it started.. WHY is it still in place??? hmm i can't figure it out.. saddam is NOT my idol.... its funny because you are all freedom this freedom that, but the SECOND someone says something you don't agree with... utilizing there freedom to express themselves.. there freedom to disagree with the government you want to kill them or exile them.. weren't you just preaching about freedom and fighting for it...

we have freedom of speech(bairly still.. dont get me started on this) because our citizens can voice their opinions. if you dont like that why dont you go back to 30's and 40's germany where they treated the rebels like you are treating us who see things differently than you... nazi

Originally posted by oc civic
no you are wrong.. i want to go to war for JUST causes... IF the UN decides war is necisary due to FACTUAL evidence then im all for it.. im NOT for random crusades against countries that pose NO REAL military threat...

oc civic open your eyes, he does pose a military threat to your country. This is like talking to a wall, all valid facts you say arent valid, get off your high horse and look around.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by mt.biker
oc civic open your eyes, he does pose a military threat to your country. This is like talking to a wall, all valid facts you say arent valid, get off your high horse and look around.

how does he have the ability to attack? honestly? his missles that he is dismantaling broke the 93 mile limit by 5 miles with no warheads in them. he would have to be within 93 miles of the coast... that means ships.. or he could fly them in, but we have patrol around the whole mid east, he cant exactly slip a jet out.

Originally posted by mt.biker
oc civic open your eyes, he does pose a military threat to your country. This is like talking to a wall, all valid facts you say arent valid, get off your high horse and look around.

he is now dismanteling the missles deemed against UN policy.. now in your own words justify war..

Originally posted by oc civic
he is now dismanteling the missles deemed against UN policy.. now in your own words justify war..

You are a foolish foolish man! You think because hes dismanteling these weapons you've found that he will willing do it to all the others that you haven't found yet.

I really question why you dont want to goto war oc civic? It seems to me like the people here that dont want to goto war are just ignoring facts. You will also be the first people to cry "bloody murder" when a major city is hit by an unknow biological weapon, or missile. This war you would be going into would be one of proactive protection. With a country like Iraq you cannot wait around any longer. You have given him enough time and by waiting any longer you are only showing him that hes figured out the system and by giving you a little at a time he is able to do more behind your back.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by mt.biker
You are a foolish foolish man! You think because hes dismanteling these weapons you've found that he will willing do it to all the others that you haven't found yet.

I really question why you dont want to goto war oc civic? It seems to me like the people here that dont want to goto war are just ignoring facts. You will also be the first people to cry "bloody murder" when a major city is hit by an unknow biological weapon, or missile. This war you would be going into would be one of proactive protection. With a country like Iraq you cannot wait around any longer. You have given him enough time and by waiting any longer you are only showing him that hes figured out the system and by giving you a little at a time he is able to do more behind your back.

the problem is there is no proof, what happens when we level a town, and go and search and find nothing. you cannot go to war on a hunch. you are a common terrorist to attack without just cause

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
the problem is there is no proof, what happens when we level a town, and go and search and find nothing. you cannot go to war on a hunch. you are a common terrorist to attack without just cause

Chris the just cause is the fact he has not been meeting the deadlines and the UN has had to push them back time and tiem again. He has not proved himself to be good to his word. There in lies just cause.

Originally posted by mt.biker
You are a foolish foolish man! You think because hes dismanteling these weapons you've found that he will willing do it to all the others that you haven't found yet.

I really question why you dont want to goto war oc civic? It seems to me like the people here that dont want to goto war are just ignoring facts. You will also be the first people to cry "bloody murder" when a major city is hit by an unknow biological weapon, or missile. This war you would be going into would be one of proactive protection. With a country like Iraq you cannot wait around any longer. You have given him enough time and by waiting any longer you are only showing him that hes figured out the system and by giving you a little at a time he is able to do more behind your back.

because i believe in freedom.. thats exactly why.. i believe in a cultures ability to exist without fear of US imposed tyranny. i believe in burdone of proof. i believ that you THINK they are doing something bad.. i BELIEVE you might be right. but i ALSO believe in due process. i believe it is the finger pointer burden, PROVE a crime is commited... if we lose that we lose ALL freedom.. a crime is a breach in U/N protocal NOT a culture we disagree with...

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by mt.biker
Chris the just cause is the fact he has not been meeting the deadlines and the UN has had to push them back time and tiem again. He has not proved himself to be good to his word. There in lies just cause.

if we defy the UN, then we are just as bad as them

NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE!!!

oc civic- i see where you are coming from now. Yes they are a different culture and yes they shouldn't be forced to live a life sytle similar to north america. BUt shouldnt they be given the right to live freely? From all that I have come to understand the people in Iraq live in fear and are not truly "free." What is wrong with giving them their freedom?

If they aren't able to fight for their own freedom because they are so controled shouldn't someone step in and give them the ability to live in a free nation? This would involve putting an elected leader into power.


Chris - now that is an interesting point. If we can agree that Saddam has defied the UN, then we must agree on the proper action that would need to be taken. I dont believe more time is the answer because we've already tried that again and again. So what do you think is the right way to deal with a militant country who is not following the UN guidelines?

Originally posted by mt.biker
Chris the just cause is the fact he has not been meeting the deadlines and the UN has had to push them back time and tiem again. He has not proved himself to be good to his word. There in lies just cause.

not true.. the U/N as we agree (by US policy) is a WORLD court... and what that court decides IS law.. if they agree that the missle issue is a gray area and agree to push it back, then we as being party to that law making party must let that take place..

Originally posted by oc civic
not true.. the U/N as we agree (by US policy) is a WORLD court... and what that court decides IS law.. if they agree that the missle issue is a gray area and agree to push it back, then we as being party to that law making party must let that take place..

the only downside to that of course, is the fact that no other country in the UN is more at risk from an attack then the US. So the question is does the UN really have everyones best interests in mind? I'm beginning to doubt that they do...

Originally posted by mt.biker
NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE!!!

oc civic- i see where you are coming from now. Yes they are a different culture and yes they shouldn't be forced to live a life sytle similar to north america. BUt shouldnt they be given the right to live freely? From all that I have come to understand the people in Iraq live in fear and are not truly "free." What is wrong with giving them their freedom?

If they aren't able to fight for their own freedom because they are so controled shouldn't someone step in and give them the ability to live in a free nation? This would involve putting an elected leader into power.

yes we ARE getting somewhere

NO we should NOT fight for them.. BECAUSE moraly i think that opressign women (for example) is bad BUT they do not necisarily... how many years did the US opress blacks and women.. did any nation attack us to free them.. HELL NO.. and THATS my point.. if another nation IS wrong acording to world law (what we PRE AGREE ON) then hell yeah ill pick up a gun and stand next to you.. BUT i STRONGLY believe in the fundementals of freedom.. you can NOT run around the world and say ok china.. we don't like comunism.. if you dont change we are gonna wage war.. we CAN do other things to show dissatisfaction we can use things liek trade embargos against iraq.. we can CHOSE not to help them, NOT to be associated with them, AND to defend against them, but we can NOT choose how to run there country.. IF we start to do that we BECOME hitler... nazi like in nature..

Originally posted by mt.biker
the only downside to that of course, is the fact that no other country in the UN is more at risk from an attack then the US. So the question is does the UN really have everyones best interests in mind? I'm beginning to doubt that they do...

there are many countries that SHOULD fear him in the UN that are MUCH closer to his reach... isreal, iran, southern european countries.... there are MANY that shoudl have REAL fear... countries that have MUCH less than the atlantic ocean between them and the target..

Originally posted by oc civic
yes we ARE getting somewhere

NO we should NOT fight for them.. BECAUSE moraly i think that opressign women (for example) is bad BUT they do not necisarily... how many years did the US opress blacks and women.. did any nation attack us to free them.. HELL NO.. and THATS my point.. if another nation IS wrong acording to world law (what we PRE AGREE ON) then hell yeah ill pick up a gun and stand next to you.. BUT i STRONGLY believe in the fundementals of freedom.. you can NOT run around the world and say ok china.. we don't like comunism.. if you dont change we are gonna wage war.. we CAN do other things to show dissatisfaction we can use things liek trade embargos against iraq.. we can CHOSE not to help them, NOT to be associated with them, AND to defend against them, but we can NOT choose how to run there country.. IF we start to do that we BECOME hitler... nazi like in nature..

See here in lies a problem, if i'm not mistake france, germany and russa do alot of business with Iraq, does this mean that the people that sit on the UN for those countries would rather do business with iraq then goto war? I'm going to have to say yes considering that none of those 3 countries are willing to goto war.

I feel that the UN is to soft spoken on issues and isnt' fast in reacting to world issues; like Iraq. This is were I feel the US, britian and any other free nation just needs to step in. Maybe starting a war with everyone isnt the answer and I know its not and dont support war in that manner. I do feel however that a nation like Iraq with all thats going on over there does need firmer treatment by the UN. This hasn't happened yet and thats why I support war in Iraq. with me so far?

Originally posted by mt.biker
See here in lies a problem, if i'm not mistake france, germany and russa do alot of business with Iraq, does this mean that the people that sit on the UN for those countries would rather do business with iraq then goto war? I'm going to have to say yes considering that none of those 3 countries are willing to goto war.

I feel that the UN is to soft spoken on issues and isnt' fast in reacting to world issues; like Iraq. This is were I feel the US, britian and any other free nation just needs to step in. Maybe starting a war with everyone isnt the answer and I know its not and dont support war in that manner. I do feel however that a nation like Iraq with all thats going on over there does need firmer treatment by the UN. This hasn't happened yet and thats why I support war in Iraq. with me so far?

but its i think its just as bad as saying they dont want a war cause its not in there best interest and we DO want war because its in our best interest... so 6 of one half a dozen of another... get what im saying? im saying if we as a nation want something that is in our best interest then we need to petition the UN to allow that to happen.. does it happen quick enough??? no of course not.. NOTHING politaical happens fast enough.. but i still dont think that it gives anyone the right to go off like crazy starting problems..

heres where im at..
is war NEEDED in iraq? im not sure.. if NEW UN violations are found and NOT delt with then yes probably, but as long as they (iraq) are compliant (even SLOWLY) compliance is the ULTIMATE goal right? war to me is NOT the ultimate goal.. id RATHER see the US KEEP pushing the security council to disarm them.. even if it is a PAINSTAKING process.. you all seem to think they have some bad ass weapons.. SO WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO SEND TROOPS THERE.. so he can use them??? i STILL believe diplomacy CAN work in this matter...



should the US make Saddam leave? ABSOLUTELY NOT it violates EVERYTHING i believe it.. he IS the nations leader however he got there.. if he is bad enough the people will rise against him... and things will change as they did for the founders of america.. its not easy but i DONT think its our job to meddle in other countries politics...

one last thing... i think you all took what i said before about his manor out of context.. i do honestly believe he is a MUCH better polotician than bush... i really believe that.. i DONT think he is the monster we make him out to be (relative to his nations culture) we can NOT compare his acts to our morals and cultures... i AM NOT sayign he is a good man... i NEVER said he was good to his people or i would want to live in iraq (with any seriousness)

[Wren57]

I really don't see how some of you can be so trusting of a leader who has been so unjust to not only his neighbors but his own citizens. Please wake up and realize he is lying. Please tell me why we should believe anything he says. The liquid I was referring to that you call "silly" is a bio-chem component, which isn't silly when dropped on anyone. I could run circles around your arguments, but don't have the time or patience, and class starts in three minutes... Here is an overview of the three major countries and why they are opposed to war. They have ulterior motives, can't you figure this out?

French Prez Circh (or something like that) is clinging to the idea that his country still matters on the world stage. In reality France's economy has gone to the shits with the implementation of socialism and making it harder to fire employees. If you understand economics you would realize companies don't want to hire people they can't fire, so they are stagnating. He thinks the French matter, and is using his veto vote to try to prove a point. I bet you didn't know that many muslims live in western France, and well the prez is a diplomat and counts votes... I also bet you didn't know that France has lucrative oil for food deals with Iraq. I also bet you didn't know he has been seen many times meeting with Hussein, and there are paintings of these meetings... figure it out

ok 1 minute left...

Russia- still fuming over the US sending their economy to hell during cold war by outspending them, waiting for a chance to get rid of us so they can rise to power again...

Germany- has no vested interest in the war, has too many home-problems right now and isn't under attack itself so they don't care about anyone else, they are german, go figure...

Ill clarify and/or explain any of these points in detail if you'd like for me to, but now off to AP Calculus...

Originally posted by highlander
I really don't see how some of you can be so trusting of a leader who has been so unjust to not only his neighbors but his own citizens. Please wake up and realize he is lying. Please tell me why we should believe anything he says. The liquid I was referring to that you call "silly" is a bio-chem component, which isn't silly when dropped on anyone. I could run circles around your arguments, but don't have the time or patience, and class starts in three minutes... Here is an overview of the three major countries and why they are opposed to war. They have ulterior motives, can't you figure this out?

French Prez Circh (or something like that) is clinging to the idea that his country still matters on the world stage. In reality France's economy has gone to the shits with the implementation of socialism and making it harder to fire employees. If you understand economics you would realize companies don't want to hire people they can't fire, so they are stagnating. He thinks the French matter, and is using his veto vote to try to prove a point. I bet you didn't know that many muslims live in western France, and well the prez is a diplomat and counts votes... I also bet you didn't know that France has lucrative oil for food deals with Iraq. I also bet you didn't know he has been seen many times meeting with Hussein, and there are paintings of these meetings... figure it out

ok 1 minute left...

Russia- still fuming over the US sending their economy to hell during cold war by outspending them, waiting for a chance to get rid of us so they can rise to power again...

Germany- has no vested interest in the war, has too many home-problems right now and isn't under attack itself so they don't care about anyone else, they are german, go figure...

Ill clarify and/or explain any of these points in detail if you'd like for me to, but now off to AP Calculus...

you are once again COMPLETELY avoiding the question.. its irrelevant why they dont watn war.. WHO CARES... my point is radicals like your self who are more interested in war than the an alternate positive result are the problem.. you are the people that would rather see blood shed than a problem resolved..

you think they have bad weapons right?so you would rather send thousands of troops to there deaths to confirm this hunch over diplomatic resolution.. remind me to NEVER vote for anyone like you.. you are like those states who have ACCIDENTLY sent nnocent people to the electric chair.. ONCE AGAIN.. maybe you missed what i said.... re read it.. im NOT saying im against war.. im sayign im against war based on his oppresion of his people, or some UNPROVED hunch about chemical weapons...

I've said all that I care to say from this point on it just feels like we are going in circles.

Originally posted by mt.biker
I've said all that I care to say from this point on it just feels like we are going in circles.

IM NOT SAYING I WAS RIGHT AND YOU WERE WRONG.. but do you at least see what i mean about the war option.. and justifying it, and diplomacy although slow is better than blood shed?

Originally posted by highlander
The liquid I was referring to that you call "silly" is a bio-chem component

i THINK you are talking about VX and that was loaded into the missles prior to the gulf war.. and is OLD news....

[ChrisCantSkate]

so much has gone on since class... where do i start

Originally posted by highlander
I really don't see how some of you can be so trusting of a leader who has been so unjust to not only his neighbors but his own citizens. Please wake up and realize he is lying. Please tell me why we should believe anything he says. The liquid I was referring to that you call "silly" is a bio-chem component, which isn't silly when dropped on anyone. I could run circles around your arguments, but don't have the time or patience, and class starts in three minutes... Here is an overview of the three major countries and why they are opposed to war. They have ulterior motives, can't you figure this out?

French Prez Circh (or something like that) is clinging to the idea that his country still matters on the world stage. In reality France's economy has gone to the shits with the implementation of socialism and making it harder to fire employees. If you understand economics you would realize companies don't want to hire people they can't fire, so they are stagnating. He thinks the French matter, and is using his veto vote to try to prove a point. I bet you didn't know that many muslims live in western France, and well the prez is a diplomat and counts votes... I also bet you didn't know that France has lucrative oil for food deals with Iraq. I also bet you didn't know he has been seen many times meeting with Hussein, and there are paintings of these meetings... figure it out

ok 1 minute left...

Russia- still fuming over the US sending their economy to hell during cold war by outspending them, waiting for a chance to get rid of us so they can rise to power again...

Germany- has no vested interest in the war, has too many home-problems right now and isn't under attack itself so they don't care about anyone else, they are german, go figure...

Ill clarify and/or explain any of these points in detail if you'd like for me to, but now off to AP Calculus...

you have managed to address everything not asked for, and nothing that holds any water. you tell us about other contries homeland problems, which we have plenty of too, you fail to realize iraq has oil, and even though we do not import from them , other coutries do.

you know what bush wants? he wants to take saddam out of power (not a bad idea), and have good foregin relations with iraq (once again, not a bad idea). however if/when he takes saddam out of power, he wants to set up a democracy there. he will give the people a chance to pick their new leader, as long as he approves. then he will let them run the government, again, as long as he approves. this is worse than saddams elections for president, he is the product of the iraqi's decissions. we would be telling them how to run their country. that dosnt sound like world domination to anyone besides me?

and your russia comment.... c'mon thats so weak. they are mad at us because of the cold war? that has what relevence to iraq? they dont want to go to war because theres no proof of anything. people dont come back from the dead. once you kill them. they, including every other contry in the world, are more conserned about having a just war than having their pride hurt. remeber iraq had NOTHING to do with the terrorism on 9-11, do not think that war on iraq will compensate for the WTC. if you feel that this is a solution, you are the most ignorant racist close minded person in the world

you know what we would do if iraq had the UN do a full cavity search on us? probobly freak out and go to war. americans have their heads so far up their asses about this whole we're the best contry that we forget to realize that they are people too.

[Wren57]

Ok let me clarify, again. I am not for war before exhausting all other means of solving the problem. No it is not VX in the warheads, it is not old news, it was discovered last week and if you really want me to I can get some news reports for you regarding it. You really should do some hard research before you speak. I hope you don't believe the liberal slant the media puts on everything.

As for me talking about the other countries, you have to look at the big picture and determine the strategies the other countries are using. You forget how politics can sometimes interrupt action. I was merely illustrating the ulterior motives of other countries.

I never made any parallels with Iraq and 9/11 and do not believe they are connected. I do however believe Iraq is very capable of training soldiers to commit terrorist attacks against the US. Heck, I'm very capable of commiting terrorist attacks on the US, but of course I wouldn't.

Bush has nothing but the best intentions for the people of Iraq after the war. I believe he will live up to his promise of turning the government over to the people to choose for themselves. He would get too much political and foreign pressure if he didn't.

And I did not fail to realize Iraq has oil. Try actually reading my post and you will figure that one out.

As for oc civic, please stop typing with caps, I can understand your emphasis without being shouted at. Thanks.

[Wren57]

And so you don't think I'm a pro-bush all the way for war and all that other crap, I think he is handling Iraq well, but I do believe he is being way too aggressive with North Korea, who actually is asking for the United State's cooperation. Just today Pyongyang asked for direct negotiations w/ the US, but instead we sent 24 long-range bombers to Guam... not a smart move

Originally posted by highlander
Ok let me clarify, again. I am not for war before exhausting all other means of solving the problem. No it is not VX in the warheads, it is not old news, it was discovered last week and if you really want me to I can get some news reports for you regarding it. You really should do some hard research before you speak. I hope you don't believe the liberal slant the media puts on everything.

As for me talking about the other countries, you have to look at the big picture and determine the strategies the other countries are using. You forget how politics can sometimes interrupt action. I was merely illustrating the ulterior motives of other countries.

I never made any parallels with Iraq and 9/11 and do not believe they are connected. I do however believe Iraq is very capable of training soldiers to commit terrorist attacks against the US. Heck, I'm very capable of commiting terrorist attacks on the US, but of course I wouldn't.

Bush has nothing but the best intentions for the people of Iraq after the war. I believe he will live up to his promise of turning the government over to the people to choose for themselves. He would get too much political and foreign pressure if he didn't.

And I did not fail to realize Iraq has oil. Try actually reading my post and you will figure that one out.

As for oc civic, please stop typing with caps, I can understand your emphasis without being shouted at. Thanks.

i still think you are missing the point.. im sure bush does think he has the best answer for iraq, but unfortunately its still non of our business (imho).. i think that the ONLY act of war they can commit towards us directly at this time is terrorist style attacks.. and well to be perfectly honest so can every other country in the world... and i just dont think that warants war oil this oil that who cares.. i do agree this is NOT about oil.. i just dont see where we as a nation can justify war with them...

and yes please.. news reports on that im interested..

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by highlander
And so you don't think I'm a pro-bush all the way for war and all that other crap, I think he is handling Iraq well, but I do believe he is being way too aggressive with North Korea, who actually is asking for the United State's cooperation. Just today Pyongyang asked for direct negotiations w/ the US, but instead we sent 24 long-range bombers to Guam... not a smart move

iraq IS cooperating.. slowly, but they still are. we are giving them a full anal probe, remeber they have a country that needs to get other things done too.