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01-30-2003, 01:35 AM

You know, years ago I swore I would never again participate in this debate. It all boils down to the agnostics giving proof or science and then the christians whipping out their bibles and claiming "faith". Neither side can prove their case to the other. Christians can never give "faith" to an agnostic. And an agnostic can never have enough evidence to convice a christian that there is no god. What does this mean? None of us know jack. No human or animal can claim to know anything. That includes me. I know nothing. But nevertheless, I am somehow possessed to reply to this thread anyway. What follows is my .02, meaningless as it is.

I am going to start off with fossils. That is the first thing that comes to mind. Hopefully someone here has heard of Carbon-14 dating? If not it is a process of measuring the amount of C14 (a slightly radioactive molecule found in all living things) and using its halflife to determine the age of the remnants of a living thing. It is a process based on FACT, not theory. It is based in patterns, unity, consistency. It is always correct. And C14 dating says that a lot of the fossils we have are a HELL of a lot older than 12,000 years. Down comes that theory.

Now for evolution. Do I like the idea that I descended from a monkey? Hell yeah! I am damn proud that my form and functionality is the result of MILLIONS of years of constant improvement. To know that after that long, I am the best thing nature could come up with. That makes me damn proud. And evolution makes perfect sense, if you look into it. Evolution occurs not by design, but rather by abnormality. "Evolutions" are abbherations in the genetic code that turn out to work for the better. That trait is passed on to the offspring of its initial "victim" and eventually, there is a significant number of "mutants" who are actually better off than their kin. Since the creatures with the abbheration are better equipped to survive, the others die out, and the abbheration becomes the normal. Such is evolution. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that in a given process (such as procreation and genetic replication) there will be occasional errors. And if these errors are beneficial, the above will occur. Evolution is very much a reality. So down comes that theory as well.

Now, on to creationism. "But Zach," you say, "no way could the order of the world occur by accident!" Sorry, but not only did it, but that has been replicated as well. Using evidence found in the deeper areas of the earth, scientists were able to recreate the atmosphere of the world when it was just a bunch of space crap that had gotten thrown together when it was caught in the gravity well of a star (our sun). After replicating this atmosphere, the scientists added something simple: a single bolt of lightning, a normality in the turbulent atmosphere of the early earth. This bolt of lightning caused the fusion of certain molecules, which bonded together to form: drum roll please.... Amino Acids! That's right, the building blocks of life as we know it. The amino acids began to combine, and as soon as they did, the scientists shut down the operation completely. You know why? Say it with me agnostics: christian morality. If they had continued the experiment and actually created life, religion world wide would have thrown a fit. It could have caused mass chaos and a bigger outbreak of morality issues than could be worked out by the time our grandchildren retire. But long story short, it is not only possible that life developed on this planet without the presence of a god, but it has been replicated. Down goes theory number 3.

Now for the bible. This is such a patchwork mess it can hardly be used to prove anything. Every other statement is contradicted by another in the same book. The old testament and new testament mesh about as well as a square peg and a round hole. It contradicts itself so often, that most people who use the bible as a defense can be disproven by the bible as well. I am not going to whip out my bible (yes I have one) and start looking up contradictions. I hear them every day, and you should too, if you listen. Down goes that backup.

Moving on: wars. This one goes to both sides. Many, many wars were caused by religion, and millions died because of it. These wars were blatantly endorsed by religions, and many wars still are. However, I believe that the desire to fight is part of intrinsic human nature. Part of our territorialism and predator/scavenger nature in the days of old. Some primitive instincts that just haven't died yet (and one more arguement for evolution). Do I think it is wrong that religion caused wars? Sure. But I think it would have happened anyway, so it isn't really important.

Now, about evolutionists and creationists agreeing on topics. Is that happening? Sure. But it is more christianity coming to its senses and letting go of old, rediculous stories. The catholic church has come out and said that the story of Adam and Eve is just that: a story. It is symbolic of some ideals that their god wanted them to believe and it was written for that purpose. Thousands of years ago, nothing was written down, everything was remembered through stories. Some things were hard to remember, so they were weaved into stories to make them easier. It was hard to remember that god wanted christians not to fall to temptation, but it was easy to remember a story about two naked people in a garden. And so those beliefs were passed down in the story of Adam and Eve. It is not the belief of the catholic church that that actually happened. And so the story falls.

Okay, I have been writing this for an hour and a half, so it is time to close. Is religion a bad thing? Not necessarily. Remember, a lot of people are little more than sheep. Without a reason to be moral, they wouldn't. Back when society was first shaping itself, the incessant question of "why?" still plagued men. Excuse me, humans. So when someone came up with the bright idea, "hey, lets try to stop killing each other and live together for the benefit of all of us!" someone had to ask why. A good answer? "Hmm...because god says so!" It was good enough, so people bought it. As time progresses, it became necessary for more regulations to preserve peace and morality. Once again, people asked "why?". The answer? "Well, the god excuse worked before, I will just try it again." Soon, it developed into a religion, and then into many religions. And voila: things are as they are now.

So is religion bad? Not completely. It provides a reason to be moral to people who need it. But it comes at a cost. That cost is faith. So many people no longer question anything. Someone tells them that there is an invisible man in the sky who loves them so much he will send them to hell to burn forever, and they just accept it. It has gone so far that some people even believe that Elvis is still alive, bigfoot is real, and aliens abduct people daily. Complacency has become inbred into culture. That is a hell of a price to pay for a little order. Maybe it is worth it, who knows. I sure as hell can't say if it is worth it or not. As for me, I would rather have freedom and truth. I am moral because I know that morality is beneficial for all mankind. I don't need a god to tell me to do it, I can do just fine on my own, thank you. And as for faith, I would rather have fact, thank you again. I would rather be able to look at something and say, "Oh, so that is why that works" instead of having to say, "yeah, well I have faith!"

But again, it all boils down to this: "the only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing". Confuscious, I believe. I don't pretend to have the total answer. But there are some things that are order and law in the world, and you can't argue with those. Peace, and remember; open mindedness is the key to learning. And to be open, a mind has to be clear. Don't respond immediately after reading these posts. Let them sink in, think about it. And don't take any of this personally! ESPECIALLY MONOTHEISTS! But also my fellow agnostics. No one here is attacking you, we are just trying to make you think. That is all, just think.

Peace.

01-30-2003, 01:35 AM	#45
Sol's Eye Posts: n/a	You know, years ago I swore I would never again participate in this debate. It all boils down to the agnostics giving proof or science and then the christians whipping out their bibles and claiming "faith". Neither side can prove their case to the other. Christians can never give "faith" to an agnostic. And an agnostic can never have enough evidence to convice a christian that there is no god. What does this mean? None of us know jack. No human or animal can claim to know anything. That includes me. I know nothing. But nevertheless, I am somehow possessed to reply to this thread anyway. What follows is my .02, meaningless as it is. I am going to start off with fossils. That is the first thing that comes to mind. Hopefully someone here has heard of Carbon-14 dating? If not it is a process of measuring the amount of C14 (a slightly radioactive molecule found in all living things) and using its halflife to determine the age of the remnants of a living thing. It is a process based on FACT, not theory. It is based in patterns, unity, consistency. It is always correct. And C14 dating says that a lot of the fossils we have are a HELL of a lot older than 12,000 years. Down comes that theory. Now for evolution. Do I like the idea that I descended from a monkey? Hell yeah! I am damn proud that my form and functionality is the result of MILLIONS of years of constant improvement. To know that after that long, I am the best thing nature could come up with. That makes me damn proud. And evolution makes perfect sense, if you look into it. Evolution occurs not by design, but rather by abnormality. "Evolutions" are abbherations in the genetic code that turn out to work for the better. That trait is passed on to the offspring of its initial "victim" and eventually, there is a significant number of "mutants" who are actually better off than their kin. Since the creatures with the abbheration are better equipped to survive, the others die out, and the abbheration becomes the normal. Such is evolution. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that in a given process (such as procreation and genetic replication) there will be occasional errors. And if these errors are beneficial, the above will occur. Evolution is very much a reality. So down comes that theory as well. Now, on to creationism. "But Zach," you say, "no way could the order of the world occur by accident!" Sorry, but not only did it, but that has been replicated as well. Using evidence found in the deeper areas of the earth, scientists were able to recreate the atmosphere of the world when it was just a bunch of space crap that had gotten thrown together when it was caught in the gravity well of a star (our sun). After replicating this atmosphere, the scientists added something simple: a single bolt of lightning, a normality in the turbulent atmosphere of the early earth. This bolt of lightning caused the fusion of certain molecules, which bonded together to form: drum roll please.... Amino Acids! That's right, the building blocks of life as we know it. The amino acids began to combine, and as soon as they did, the scientists shut down the operation completely. You know why? Say it with me agnostics: christian morality. If they had continued the experiment and actually created life, religion world wide would have thrown a fit. It could have caused mass chaos and a bigger outbreak of morality issues than could be worked out by the time our grandchildren retire. But long story short, it is not only possible that life developed on this planet without the presence of a god, but it has been replicated. Down goes theory number 3. Now for the bible. This is such a patchwork mess it can hardly be used to prove anything. Every other statement is contradicted by another in the same book. The old testament and new testament mesh about as well as a square peg and a round hole. It contradicts itself so often, that most people who use the bible as a defense can be disproven by the bible as well. I am not going to whip out my bible (yes I have one) and start looking up contradictions. I hear them every day, and you should too, if you listen. Down goes that backup. Moving on: wars. This one goes to both sides. Many, many wars were caused by religion, and millions died because of it. These wars were blatantly endorsed by religions, and many wars still are. However, I believe that the desire to fight is part of intrinsic human nature. Part of our territorialism and predator/scavenger nature in the days of old. Some primitive instincts that just haven't died yet (and one more arguement for evolution). Do I think it is wrong that religion caused wars? Sure. But I think it would have happened anyway, so it isn't really important. Now, about evolutionists and creationists agreeing on topics. Is that happening? Sure. But it is more christianity coming to its senses and letting go of old, rediculous stories. The catholic church has come out and said that the story of Adam and Eve is just that: a story. It is symbolic of some ideals that their god wanted them to believe and it was written for that purpose. Thousands of years ago, nothing was written down, everything was remembered through stories. Some things were hard to remember, so they were weaved into stories to make them easier. It was hard to remember that god wanted christians not to fall to temptation, but it was easy to remember a story about two naked people in a garden. And so those beliefs were passed down in the story of Adam and Eve. It is not the belief of the catholic church that that actually happened. And so the story falls. Okay, I have been writing this for an hour and a half, so it is time to close. Is religion a bad thing? Not necessarily. Remember, a lot of people are little more than sheep. Without a reason to be moral, they wouldn't. Back when society was first shaping itself, the incessant question of "why?" still plagued men. Excuse me, humans. So when someone came up with the bright idea, "hey, lets try to stop killing each other and live together for the benefit of all of us!" someone had to ask why. A good answer? "Hmm...because god says so!" It was good enough, so people bought it. As time progresses, it became necessary for more regulations to preserve peace and morality. Once again, people asked "why?". The answer? "Well, the god excuse worked before, I will just try it again." Soon, it developed into a religion, and then into many religions. And voila: things are as they are now. So is religion bad? Not completely. It provides a reason to be moral to people who need it. But it comes at a cost. That cost is faith. So many people no longer question anything. Someone tells them that there is an invisible man in the sky who loves them so much he will send them to hell to burn forever, and they just accept it. It has gone so far that some people even believe that Elvis is still alive, bigfoot is real, and aliens abduct people daily. Complacency has become inbred into culture. That is a hell of a price to pay for a little order. Maybe it is worth it, who knows. I sure as hell can't say if it is worth it or not. As for me, I would rather have freedom and truth. I am moral because I know that morality is beneficial for all mankind. I don't need a god to tell me to do it, I can do just fine on my own, thank you. And as for faith, I would rather have fact, thank you again. I would rather be able to look at something and say, "Oh, so that is why that works" instead of having to say, "yeah, well I have faith!" But again, it all boils down to this: "the only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing". Confuscious, I believe. I don't pretend to have the total answer. But there are some things that are order and law in the world, and you can't argue with those. Peace, and remember; open mindedness is the key to learning. And to be open, a mind has to be clear. Don't respond immediately after reading these posts. Let them sink in, think about it. And don't take any of this personally! ESPECIALLY MONOTHEISTS! But also my fellow agnostics. No one here is attacking you, we are just trying to make you think. That is all, just think. Peace.