No no no no my man EVOLUTIONIST are agreeing on christians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I watched it once when i was getting ready for work in the morning and saw them agree! The descusion was the big bang theory, the Christian was directly talking to the evolutionist when he asked "what do you think happened when God said let there be light, blam theres light. Or what you guys say bang!" The Evolutionist agreed that was what probably happened and that the facts the Bible does give have been correct and on the mark. But after saying that he was doing some quick backing up by saying the Bible was just a good history book. Hmmmmmm whatever! Lets face the facts we are not decendents of monkeys, atleast i WILL NOT EVER agree w/ that stupid THEORY (yes theory). Bible doesnt go on theory!!! And you want to, why, so you can say youre relitive was a monkey(LOL)!

Ok...I know I recused myself from this but I'm getting the feeling that a lot of you guys denying evolution don't really get the principles of it. Evolution is not a rapid thing. It takes dozens upon dozens (and maybe more) of minute changes over thousands and thousands of years. What most define as mutations could be the next step in evolution if that mutation is one that gives that being an upper hand. If you don't believe that men evolved from monkeys...you're ignoring the obvious possibilities. You think it's a coincidence that we have similar bone structures, facial features, and instinctual traits? Is it possible that it IS just a coincidence? Sure...but we're the only animals on this planet that share these traits. Find me another animal with an opposable thumb. These changes come over thousands of years and anything's possible. Look at humans. Our life span has damn near doubled in the last 150 years. This is largely due to medical advances but it's also in part related to the fact that, as animals, we instinctually try to reproduce with the best possible candidate to pass on the best possible genetic structure. Then your offspring will do the same. But what if somehow there was someone was born with an abnormally strong heart and immune system? That could theoretically give them an upper hand due to longer life and more chances at reproduction. Then their traits would be passed on more than an inferior candidate and thus evolution takes another step (in theory). Evolution isn't as simple as monkey = man. It's a minute process over hundreds of thousands of years. If you simply reject the possibility out and out then you're ignoring a perfectly feasable option. Again...I can't say this enough...it may not be right, but at least open your mind long enough to at least consider the possibility. That's all I ask. If you completely shut out one option then you've given into ignorance and ignorance is NOT bliss. I feel like a broken record, but you folks must at least admit that you might not be right. And, again, I'll never claim to have all the answers but I'll at least take everything into consideration before forming an opinion.

And Lucky...unless you can prove absolutely to me that every single event in the bible actually took place please please please keep your mouth shut. The bible is full of theories and you can't possibly prove them all. Not to say they aren't correct, but until you present me with the evidence please refrain from talking.

How the hell can i actually put all that info on here. Come on, nothing in there (new testament) is false or unprovable. Im not taking up that much of my time in looking all of that up, unless you would actually say, "ok your right!" And im sure that wont happen. There is a quick check, there was something on the internet news on that stone they dug up that has proof of the Bible. This was maybe 3-4 days ago i think, so im sure you could find it easily. Oh, i never said everything was created in a bang, of course it took a very long time for the animals and humans to evolve, or adapt to our surroundings. We were created w/ the ability to evolved into what we are now, bigger badder & smarter! Unlike monkeys which are what they are now...monkeys!!!!! :yes:

Okay, first of all: Lucky, lay off the caffeine, man. Caffeine is your friend, but if you abuse it, it abuses you and makes your typing erratic. Settle down, and speak english. ;)

GT40FIED, the arguement of evolution is going to go any farther than it has now. Both sides have become broken records. They try to argue the same things, and we offer the same refutations, only to spawn the same arguements all over again.

I am going to try one more time, to see if I can get you guys to at least consider this. wheresmylicense, long ago, there was only one creature. It was a breed of bacteria, or protozoa. Protozoa, I think. Anyway, since their structure was so simple, each minute change in gentic code produced massive change in form. Thus, since the initial structures were so simple, many different species evolved quickly. As structures became more complex, the changes were more subtle. But it is possible that in each generation, there were several mutations that proved beneficial. And some initial forms weren't exactly not beneficial so in one generation, it is possible that two new species were formed in addition to allowing the procreation of the original. Granted, the different in these species were so subtle as to not be noticed immediately, but there you have it. Evolution was a branching effect, each species splitting into several species as well as some continuing procreation of the orginal. So many species evolved from one initial breed of microscopic organism. Or perhaps those first few strands of amino acids originally formed into several combinations to produce a number of starting organisms. I don't know, I wasn't there. But the point is, that we have real world proof that suggests that evolution did happen.

The bible cannot be used as fact, because it cannot be proven as fact. The bible is a book. Written by men, for men. It is not a guide to creation, life, and the ways of the world. It is just a book. Just as you continue to emphasize that evolution is a theory, you need to realize that the bible is nothing more than that either. Just as we don't have difinitive proof that evolution did occur, neither can you prove that ANY event in the bible actually happened. Or if you can, they were events so historically vague that they could apply to anything. I am not denying that there are some historical references in the bible, I am saying that none of them prove there is a god, or that the developmental process described in the bible actually happened. It is no less of a theory than evolution. And we have more evidence to support evolution than you do from the bible. We have data from hundreds of countries all around the world that didn't colaborate on experiments and all came to the same results. We have real world evidence, fossils, dating methods, and historical records to base our theories of evolution on. You have one book. One. And one that was written 5,000 years ago by the equivelant of cavemen. I would rather say my decendants were monkies than base the theory of my existence on that.

Lastly, from what I can manage to interpret from lucky's post, where he is saying that evolutionists agree with christians, the only thing they agreed on is that there was a central point of the creation of the universe. Comparing the Big Bang to the moment when god said "let there be stuff, and there was stuff." However, that really isn't any kind of agreement, but rather just a parallel belief.

In closing, I am going to reiterate what GT40FIED said. This is a suggestion. Just think about it. Instead of interpreting this as an attack on your beliefs that you must defend yourself from, just consider it. wheresmylicense has brought up some good points, but mixed in with a lot of reiterations. Think about it for a while, and come back with questions or refutations that are derrived from previous statements, instead of repeating things already said. I would really like to see the discussion of evolution and theology go a lot farther, but that won't happen if it gets bogged down in techinicalities or redundancies. Like repeating over and over again that "it is just a theory." News flash boys, everything is just a theory. Your existence is only a theory. And the worst part is, you are the only one that believes that theory.

Peace.

Once again...much props :bow:

As for my recusion with the exception of idiotic posts, throw that away since I just saw one. For ANY of you who take the bible at face value...please understand this: it's a ****in story. By proof I mean can you prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus walked on water? Or that he turned water into wine and made one loaf of bread feed dozens of people? Or that, in an age when most men died in their 30's Job lived to 120 solely because he refused to renounce god? Of course you can't. Wanna know why? Because they're parables (look it up...it fits the context exactly). Simple stories that try to illustrate how faith in god will shower you with gifts, and who doesn't want that? Many follow the teachings in the bible not because they truely hold them to be right, but because of greed, vanity, or fear of the unknown. They want to be rewarded in some way for their faith or they want to believe that they are perfect creatures or they want to believe that once they're dead there will be something beyond. Well, we're not perfect creatures, you won't be rewarded for being an idoliter, and as for the afterlife...who knows? And, as is written i nthe bible if I'm to interperit it correctly, god also commited a sin when creating man. It says he created us in his own image. I don't know about you, but that makes either us or him extremely egotistical and vein (remember, vanity is a sin). If it's correct, god is incredibly pompous and vein for making an image of himself or else it's not true and we're just ridiculously arrogant to think that we're molded after a diety. Remember how indians used to explain simple phenomenon with grand stories of spirits and ghosts? Well...the christian difference is that they decided they should write it down. And digging up some tablet doesn't really prove that the sh!t's for real. It just proves that at one point in time there was a tablet. People will read into anything they want. What kills me is that me and Sol have put up with this for quite a while and neither accepted nor renounced what you've said, simply argued an alternative. But many of you still seem to be unable to admit the possibility you could be wrong. Congrats to you...you've upheld the most fundamental principal of christianity...denial.

Oh, and on a seperate note...any of you christian folk ever masturbated? Flip through your bible and you'll find that such an act is a sin second only to murder. So, if that's true, YOU'RE ALL FUCT ANYWAY. Remember, there are only seven cardinal sins, but countless others. Sleep tight.

Hot damn, GT40FIED. Fish in a barrel style. Nicely done. :bow:

How do the scientists date the scrolls and other biblical writings? I don't know the answer, but I'd like to know the answer. But chances are the scientists use the same methods to date those kinds of things as they use to date things that go against your ideology.



Does it say that they can change to the climate? Or does it just say they can change? I haven't read enough of the Bible to know, but my guess is that it doesn't specifically lay out what changes can and can't occur. Evolution is simply the slow process of change when you really get down to it. Creatures gradually turning into other creatures is no more than very small adaptations. One creature moves closer and closer to a cold environment and develops an ability to withstand cold while its relatives stayed in a warm environment. Now we've got 2 uniquely identifiable creatures that came from the same roots.

Look at the evolution (or for your sake "change") of people over time by simply comparing the height of European people during the Middle Ages to the height of European people now. Surely you would argue they're all the same creatures, however heights are very different. Walk into an old castle or building in England and chances are you'll bonk your head.

Here's a question for the Creationists. Did God create all the different types of people we have on the Earth today? Was there an Adam and Eve from China, a set from sub-saharan Africa, a set from Europe, and a set from North America (referring to NA Indians)? Or would you care to tell me just how so many different types of peoples have come into existence?

EDIT BELOW:

As a side note, I would like to make it known that I do not disbelieve in a higher being. There is very much in this world that I, and science, have a hard time explaining. I believe in the possibility of a universal truth, but I also believe we will never know IF it exists or WHAT it is if it exists. I don't exactly believe in a god, but I don't deny the possibility of the existence of one. I do not believe in any religion. I do not see why it is so difficult for creationism and evolutionism to both be true. I have a hard time believing in Divine Intervention. Why could not a higher being assemble or create a set of building blocks with the ability to unfold to what we have today? Much like a scientist places things in a petri dish why couldn't a god do the same? I don't claim to have all the answers, the answers I believe in are merely the best answers I have come up with to date. If you can convince me beyond the shadow of a doubt, using rational logic and reasoning with irrefuttable proof or a convincing enough argument, then I will adopt your beliefs as my own. However claiming things such as the New Testament is entirely provable and it's impossible to prove it false is merely a naive statement. Again, it only takes ONE case to prove something false and a TOTAL SOLUTION to prove it true. You must offer me proof until I die that the entire New Testament is provable, I must only offer you one shred of evidence to the contrary to prove you wrong.

I also have a hard time believing that a god who loves his children would damn them to Hell before they ever got a chance to learn of Him. It is my understanding that we are all born sinners, but God is a loving Father by giving us free will to choose to accept or deny His existence, acceptance giving you access to Heaven, denial giving you eternal damnation to Hell. So what of the child who dies during delivery? Is that child damned to Hell as a sinner who never accepted its Father? What of the people in remote areas of the globe who have never been exposed to Christianity? Are they all damned to Hell for not accepting Jesus as their Savior and are damned to Hell with the child who never had a chance? These are all quesitons I asked of my aforementioned Christian friend back in the day....his answer was that they'd go to Hell but God is still a loving Father. I don't know about you, but I have a really really really hard time accepting that as an answer of any moral type from a perfect and loving God. That's evil if you ask me. So what's your answer to the questions?

One problem that I have with many religious people is that they merely accept the religion of their parents without ever questioning their beliefs, yet they are all dead set on being correct. How can you ever know you are correct if you don't ever question the accuracy of your knowledge? How do you know that the Buddhists aren't the correct ones, or Muslims aren't correct? If you've never studied their ideology and "truths" then how can you know yours are right and theirs are wrong. It is a fundamental flaw in the reasoning of religious people that defies my understanding. If you cannot accept the possibility that you are wrong then you are merely a lemming being herded with the masses and are not a thinker, you do not know if you are right, you merely assume the lead lemming knows what's best for you and you will follow him to your grave.

b

yep, i drink way to much caffeine to stay in this talk, sorry for the scatter brain talk!;)

Good luck!!

ok, well, first off... everyone stop telling me what evolution is. i just took biology last year; i know dang well what it is.

second, you guys keep sayin it only takes one point to prove something to be false, yadda, yadda, well... i haven't seen a single one of you prove something of the Bible to be untrue, so stop ruling it out.

and about the stories from the Bible, you're right neither I nor anyone else anywhere in the world can prove to you that the stories that you mentioned and even other stories are true. what does it matter? i believe that they, in fact, occured at one point in history. another might believe differently. it doesn't matter; what's being told/taught to us and what we are supposed to get from the story is true.

"And we have more evidence to support evolution than you do from the bible" as so well-put by GT40.... i just had to laugh, i'm sorry. the day you prove to me that that is true, i might believe you. you're probably getting ready to answer back, "i just did by listing off all of those methods of data/observation." they're all man-made. anything man-made is never unfailing. NEVER.

one thing that i'd also like to mention is the Bible has constantly disproved science, but science has yet to disprove the Bible. The Bible says within it not only that the earth is spherical, but also that it rotates on an axis, etc. The Bible was DEFINITELY around when science was saying that the earth was flat, or that it was simply suspended in space. bare in mind, these facts were put in the Bible casually and in terms germane to the time-period in which it was written. they're such a small part of the Bible because they're unimportant to what is trying to be taught.

btw, i don't simply accept and not question my faith or my religion. doesn't what I'm doing right now prove that? you guys are gving me all of this perfectly legitimate "proof" that evolution occured, but given what i've learned, i think Christianity makes more sense. of course, faith is a large portion of the religion, and that's what you guys have a hard time accepting.

GT40- if you could refrain from your judgemental, stereotypical, cynical comments, i'd really appreciate it.

if i happened to miss one of your guys' points, it's cuz i had to answer a lot of stuff at once (i haven't been on the boards lately), not because i can't refute it. please just reiterate the points that you feel need to be addressed.

Okay, I just spent all night at a LAN party destroying my capacity for intelligent thought, so I will make this short, sweet and to the point.



Game Over. Two logical fallacies in the same post combined with the "exit" word. Faith. As soon as that enters the picture, the discussion is dead. We debate evolution, the bible, etc. and you say "well, I believe it, so there." The discussion can't continue. No one can argue with "I believe it" because it takes truth out of the picture.

That is my problem with monotheism. It is based on paradoxes and logical fallacies. It doesn't matter if every event in the bible happened in history or not. Fallacy is fallacy. Sorry.

In light of an inability for this discussion to continue, I am out. I wish it could have gone farther. Sorry guys.

[/discussion]

BTW, GT40FIED we should talk philosophy sometime. I used to get into huge days long conversations with my friends about philosophy and theology in which we each argued both sides just to see what we could come up with. You sound very knowledgeable and write well. We should do this again sometime. PM me one of these days.

Peace.

Just out of curiousity, which posts have you been reading? They obviously weren't mine. Have I ONCE claimed to have the answer to ANYTHING? You've just admitted your own ignorance by saying that if I proved something to you then you "might" believe me. Well...if I proved it conclusively how could you deny me? And, no, I haven't proved anything. I have (insert broken record here) argued an alternative. Jesus tap dancing christ, how many times do I have to say that? Now, this is one paragraph out of a whole post and I'm sure you'll say I took it out of context, but I challenge you to put it IN context. As Sol has so eloquiently put it, once you bring faith into it this becomes an undebateable topic. Christians use that as a failsafe because you can't very well tell someone their opinion is wrong. If I told you that I have faith that the virgin Mary was a hermaphorodite and that's how she had Jesus without ever knowing the touch of a man you can't very well tell me I'm wrong. And hey...that's a much more plausible theory than immaculate conception. It's more likely she got knocked up by Joseph and didn't want to get stoned to death for engaging in premarital sex. As for the bible disproving science...man would I love to see just one instance of that occuring. Listen...I don't know how many times or ways I can say this. I honestly do respect your opinion so long as it's based upon an intelligent decision. Freedom of choice is the only true freedom anyone has. You can forget all of that shit about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or if you're a John Locke fan, the pursuit of property). Freedom of chocie is the only thing that is truely yours. I haven't once told you "you're wrong" or said that I have the end all to be all answer because guess what...I DON'T. In the grand scheme of things humans know absolutely nothing. There isn't a single thing in your life that isn't 100% subjective to your own reality and nothing is absolutely true. You could say the sky is blue and I can say it's purple and neither one of us is right. All I'm asking you to do is to drop this (ironically) holyer than thou act and just accept the possibility that these things may have occured. I know christians (and most other religions for that matter) support themselves on the premise of being infalible. Well...I hate to be the one to tell ya...but NOTHING is truely infalible. Shit, for all you know god is the one waiting to shove red hot pokers up your ass and satan is the loving caring one. You won't know until you're dead so please don't claim to know now. And once you're dead what are you gonna do, come back and tell me I was wrong? Of course not...you'll be dead. See...that's how religion works. It never gets really good until you're dead and you can't prove or disprove anything. It's like a cheap carnival trick and you all are the carnies. So, for the sake of my sanity and the good of the human race, I'd appreciate it if you at the very least took that to heart.

Hey Sol...where the hell is Rolla, MO? If it's close to KC we should kick it sometime.

LMAO! It is a little, run down hick town that just happens to house one of the most reknowned engineering schools in the nation. It is about 2 hours from KC. We should definitely kick it sometime. That would be awesome. Actually, I want to put together an HS meet for some of the guys in MO. But we should probably take this to PMs since it is pretty OT. Damn nice post, btw.

Then surely you'd recognize that evolution is no more than the ability of creatures to adapt to their environment, much as you claim the Bible supports.


I don't rule out the possibility of the Bible being true. I don't believe in much of the stories I hear from the Bible because I consider them to be just that, stories. I give the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" as much for being a factual account of historical events as I give the Bible's stories. I don't consider the Bible a history book by any means, even though it is littered with historical events that are widely recognized as being true. There's a big difference between the word of God and a book based upon historical events and fictitious stories that illustrate principles.


The Bible is man-made.


Scientists were also claiming the Earth was round well before the general populace accepted it as true. Bear in mind, though, that the general populace were people who believed in the Bible. If they followed the Bible, why did they not believe the Earth was spherical? It was well in the BC era that scientists considered the earth as round. When did everybody start reading the Bible (I have non clue)?

Another question: what version of the Bible do you read? All Bibles are not translated equally. That's another problem with reading the Bible. The only way to truly understand what it says is to read the original Hebrew and understand the Hebrew of the time it was written. All languages change with time as do the meanings of their lexicon. It is difficult to truly understand the original author's intentions withough understanding the lexicon of the day it was written. That's no easy task that scholars have struggled with for years and years and they still can't all agree on exactly what it all says.

ah stop harpin on the bible. both science and the bible are produced by man. Both sceince and the bible go hand in hand, just for some reason bible thumpers dont believe this and science is out to prove otherwise.

The bible is a historical representation of what happened durring a certain period of time that none of us were around for. You either take it at face value or you dont, there is no middle ground. not to mention the bible was never ment to be "taken apart" it is meant to be read as "one book" and as such it has a message to tell you, a wealth of knownledge and much wisdom. Both are still theories and by such neither is more correct then the other... full stop end of story. The only proof you will have one way or another is when you die and by then it will be too late.

And this is from a believer too... so dont play that card.

i feel Kraft maccarroni and cheese is better than any of the other "imposters" you find in resturants and at school. if you think about it, Kraft is only like ninety three cents a box. if you go to a resturant, you have to pay at least three dollars just for the maccarroni. if you want cheese thats a dollar extra. then you have to get a drink because noone likes m&c with just water. we all know they overcharge for drinks. thats another dollar and fifty cents. then you have to add a tip, figure roughly a dollar. plus you had to get to that resturant somehow. usually people drive or ride the bus, i won't even get into taxi prices. if you drive, it could cost you another two to fourty dollars for gas and wear and tear depending on distance traveled, what kind of car is being driven, and its condition. then you have the traffic, the speeding tickets, and it always rains. and of course when you get to the resturant, there is always at least a 45 minute wait. then you get a table. 30 minutes later your waitress shows up and asks if you are ready to order. you say yes and order and an hour and a half later you get your food. by the time your food comes out it is all cold and gross so you say something about this. she screams back, "I'VE HAD A REALLY LONG NIGHT! NOW YOU WILL EAT THAT M&C AND YOU WILL ENJOY IT!" to which you reply, "i want to talk to the manager." the manager comes out and hears what you have to say and then talks to the waitress. the next time that you see the manager he is standing behind two police officers with handcuffs telling you to leave the resturant because apparently the waitress said you grabbed her butt without her permission which is sexual assualt in this country. so you stay the night in jail until your lawyer bails you out which cost you four hundred dollars. then you had to get your car from the impound which cost another hundred dollars plus now you have to fix the big gash in your passenger door that they put there. that only costs another fifteen hundred dollars. so because you were too cheap to buy the Kraft M&C the last time you went to the grocery store, you are now out $2146.50, three days of your life, and are now banned from what ever resturant it was that you decided to go to. i won't even begin to tell you about the schools version of M&C if you can call it that. all it takes for Kraft M&C is ninety three cents, a little milk, some butter, 15 minutes and a stove. that is why it is so much better.
J

Re: How bout religious Zealots?
 

AMEN!

Well said, and I agree!

haha:yes:

here's something interesting on heaven and hell taken directly from the bible with a little math involved....

The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is the Bible, Isaiah 30:26, describing Heaven: Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days. Thus, Heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the Earth does from the sun, and in addition seven times seven (forty-nine) times as much as the Earth does from the sun, or 50 times in all. The light we receive from the moon is 1/10,000 of the light we receive from the sun, so we can ignore that. The radiation falling on Heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses 50 times as much heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stephan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation, we have (H/E)4 = 50 where E is the absolute temperature of the Earth, 300 K (27 C). This gives H, the absolute temperature of Heaven, as 798 K (525 C)! (For old-fashioned Americans, that's close to 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Your kitchen oven won't get nearly that hot.)
The exact temperature of Hell cannot be computed. However, Revelation 21:8 says: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone. A lake of molten brimstone (or sulfur) means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, 444.6 C (above that point, it would be a vapor, not a lake). We have, then, that Heaven, at 525 C, is hotter than Hell, at less than 445 C.

So who says that the Bible has no accurate and useful scientific data?

im lazy, plus Im in school, why would I want to write an essay?....actually I write stories for fun I may consider, maybe make it on music, seeing as how Im a music junkie (mainly rock) it could be interesting, hah:ricer: