I choose to breathe tobacco-free air. You go against that freedom... majority rules, this is a democracy, majority doesn't smoke... so find somewhere away from the majority so you can smoke...

Because basically, nobody cares if you die from smoke. We just don't want to go down with you. Deal with it.

You don't have any sort of "right" to breathe a particular type of air. If you're breathing right now, you're breathing polluted air. If you had such a right, we wouldn't haved backed out of the Kyoto treaty. Come to think of it, that's a pretty ironic statement coming from a republican.

Edit: And no one cares that I smoke? Cool...then stop complaining.

You brought it up...

Yes...I did. My point was that people should stop complaining about something they have no control over. How did you not get tnat?

We DO have control over it... it is called anti-smoking laws. Can you smoke in a restaraunt in NY or CA? No. I call that control. Once again, you are wrong. Stop talking now, please.

Amen to that..

I love anti-smoking laws.

How does people complaining that you smoke differ from you complaining about people that complain?:crazy:

They have as much right to complain as you do to smoke, and depending on where you are you have less rights to smoke then complain. Maybe you should complain to law makers. I'm sure they care.

It doesn't... Steve just has his head up his ass so he can't grasp this concept.

FL is on that list too.

smoking is dirty, it gets ash every where, smells like smoke.. duh.. and if people dont like it, im gonna comply because there are laws that i want people to comply to they might not agree on, but thats just the way society works sometimes, and you godda go with it. on that note im gonna relax out on my balcony and have a smoke

Yeah...that's all you man. We have laws in KS like that, too. The town of Lawrence (where KU is) passed a law like that...and it's been a disaster. Only about 1 in 5 think it's a good idea. Most of the non-smokers I know that live there even think it's a stupid idea. it pissed off businesses left and right...some so much they actually left Lawrence. The law was passed by the city council...not the people. Laws like that get passed by candy ass governments, not people. Look at California. If you can name a bigger state of pussies in the country, I'd sure like to know.

Im afriad that these 2 posts completely contradict themselves. One on hand we have rights...On another when it is more appropiate for your argument we dont have rights. The game isnt played that way. And yes, Majority does smoke. How many senators do you think smoke? You know what well go with your "majority doesnt smoke" argument and look at it this way.

1 southern ecomomy depends on tobacco farmers...oh and another

2 if you dont wanna read it it says that 38 BILLION dollars yearly are spent. Take that out of the economy and see what happens. Really think that we would be alright if everyone stopped smoking? Yes indiana has passed smoking laws. Who pays there? Bussiness because 80% of the customers smoke so when bussiness all leave because they cant make business you area property value drops drastically and you slip into poveryty level. You cant not possibly justify removing tobacco in america because You are not gonna be breathing any cleaner air you will be making less money and I would be surprised if anarchy doesnt erupt in the streets because of it

Funny cause the state generates enough business to be a small country. guess the law there hasn't really effected people.

You're a little backwards. I realize you want ot be right all the time but you're pushing this one a little too far.

Oh they generate money? Well then...I guess they can't be pussies if they generate money. It must also mean that everyone supports the law...because they generate money. Did I miss anything there? And it's not matter of wanting to be right. It's more that I AM right all the time.:D

More later maybe...late for class.

They aren't contradictory at all... in fact, they support each other. This is a democracy, most people DO NOT smoke (your info is wrong on that one). What would happen if the $38b of tobacco-related revenue was removed? Simple; people would spend their money on other things. Money just doesn't dissapear, it flows... it would just flow elsewhere. And no, the south isn't all tobacco-farmers you stupid ass... tobacco-producing regions are more in NC and VA.

Almost all of your data is wrong, and thus the opinions you share based on that data are wrong. Re-evaluate what democracy means... also rethink how economies work.

Saying I won't breathe cleaner air bc of anti-smoking laws? Thats simply ridiculous... I don't have to deal with cig smoke in restaraunts any more, because people can't smoke in them, hence the air is cleaner... I experience cleaner air on a day-to-day basis...

Besides, nobody likes smelly hair/clothes, yellow teeth and a hole in their pocket... its just trashy.

maine screwed over alot of businesses by first saying if they had a room in the building with venting they could allow smoking indoors.. and before most businsess even finished building the rooms they changed the law to no smoking allowed inside no matter what

You ignorant fuck. Perhaps if you looked at the link you would have seen this

"Some 130,000 U.S. farms grow tobacco, primarily in the southern states, and for many growers it constitutes their primary cash crop. The U.S. Department of Agriculture includes tobacco in its price support system, both because of its economic significance to the South--it is the seventh-largest U.S. cash crop--and because for many years it has been an important export commodity. American cigarette manufacturers also play a major part in the U.S. economy, earning millions from their domestic and their foreign sales"

What that says to me is that they are making a lot of fucking money and where does that money go? ECONOMY
Democracy means that the voters (american citizens) have power. When 80% (give or take) of american citizens smoke you really think they would pass anti-smoking laws? It seems that you are arguing because you are fucking delusioned. Honestly you dumb shit you think that an economy in a state like our could survive a 40 billion pull out? NO our economy would not flow. it would collapse because American dollars are going to foreign companys for the tabacco they supply.

Check it again ass fuck my data is correct you choose to ignore the facts. As far as cleaner air? Yea restraunt air will be cleaner. But unless you live in a bubble your retarded ass has to go back outside where....smokers are. Your argument is moot. You still havent tried to justify banning smoking. Because well you cant. Next time you sit at your computer I want you to go here and then think if your post will ever help anyone

are you saying 80% of the US smokes??? lol.

if there was no smoking, why would foreign tobacco come here?

everyone is crying about dirty air but for gods sake 90% of you would like to use vehicles that do far more harm to our breathing air than cigarettes

thats why i drive a low emissions vehicle:wave:

haha I dont care if people smoke..hell i smoked for a short while..as long as a smoker respects the fact that I no longer smoke I'm good

you may cut out smok from cigarettes but trust me you aren't breathing much cleaner air

enjoy

Never claimed to be inhaling cleaner air outside... merely while enjoying a meal out somewhere I didn't have to cook.

Americans spent more money than they earned last year... first time in a LONG time this has happened. If people didn't spend $38b on cigs, they'd spend it on something else... like maybe a gym membership or something worthwhile. Thats how the economy works. Stats show people don't save money, so if you give them more money (remove cigs from their vice list), they will spend that saved money elsewhere, spurring the economy from a different direction.

I don't give a shit if you smoke outside or in your house, but inside in a public place is just rude. I wouldn't fart in an elevator (and I'm sure if 23% of people farted every time they entered a crowded elevator, they'd outlaw that too) and I wouldn't smoke next to an old lady eating a sandwich. It is simple courtesy, but trashy disrespectful fucks such as yourself weren't courteous enough to refrain from sharing your cancer with others, so laws had to be made. You couldn't govern your own behavior for the best of society, so the gov't did.

Only 23% of Americans smoke you stupid fuck. You are the minority and the majority makes the decisions. Fucking deal with it or go to France*.

http://www.acde.org/common/Tobacco.htm

If you want to argue/debate, do it like a man and use facts... not your "I have no friends to give me counter-opinions so I think I'm right at everything" female-styled emotional debate. Think I'm a close-minded jackass? I live with a socialist and a conservative hippy. Chew on that.

I like the "majority rules" argument. It's interesting...and irrelevent. The majority doesn't rule in this country nor should it because the majority is by and large phenominally stupid. A person is smart. People are idiots. Did majority rule in 2000 elections? Nope. One man got more votes, another man won because we have systems set up to make majority rule null. Plus no one in their right mind would call a bi-cameral political system a "democracy". A bi-cameral system is one of those "lesser of two evils" scenarios. We don't live in a democracy...there isn't majority rule...I smoke and there isn't shit anyone can do about it. I think that about covers it.

wow 2000 election... please.

alright lemmi see if i remeber everything i wanted to say.

ah yes, smoking to support the economy. if anything smoking helps the government because of the high tax put on cigs, although as wren said, that 38 million would not disapear, it would be funneled into the economy anyways, since you can assume that the $3-$4 a pack you spend is part of your disposable income and would be spent anyways, or we could hope that it would not be included back into your budjet and put into investments stimulationg the economy much better, but doubtful that would happen.

crying for the farmers? ehh i'll get my violin. no one cared about the welfare of the liquor industry durring porhibition, no one cares about the multi-billion dollar cocaine industry in south america and how their families... shit how their county is going to get the income they need to stay halfway afloat. no one cares about the marajuana farmers in mexico, this is a evil industry, its manufacturing an addictive product that does do long-term harm to people. dont cry for them

pussies in cali for voting against it and i'll include all other states too... when im eating a $25 steak i want to enjoy it. i dont want to have to taste the cigerette smoke in the air giving my food an unplesent flavor. what about children who dont have as developed bodys and they have to hack away cause of second hand smoke, and dont tell me its a lie, i usta when my dad smoked around me, and he stoped cause of it.

air pollution... well its a situation that isnt easly tackeled but as i said earlier and other people did, indoors would be better, non smokers wouldnt have to smell/breathe it in. i worked in a resturant that we sectioned off the bar and had an air purifier in there, well it cut down alot, but you can still smell it if your not a smoker. it seems that smokers dont have as good a sence of smell, at least for cigs, and the remnents of it in the air is much more unpleasing for them as opposed to me(a smoker) cause i dont smell it.


i think that sums up, its dirty, smells and shouldnt be empossed on people who dont want to deal with it.

and on that note i light up a nice fresh crisp parlement i stole from the hippie who lives next door

haha this thread is dumb as hell...anyone else remember what happened when the prohibition laws were in place?:D

Wow...that was refreshing. You kids need to calm down. I'm having fun with this, but if it gets that out of hand I'll lock it down. That goes for you too, Mike. I mean it...I'll turn this car around.

See? Act like children, get treated like children.

On a side note. Wren...I AM governing my own behavior. Just because it's in a manner that you deem to be unfit doesn't matter. It's a personal freedom to do as I see fit. The government has no right to legislate it (or at least they shouldn't...for reference, see: "eminent domain"). If I had a dime for every report I had read in the past few years saying that second hand smoke isn't nearly as bad for you as people used to think, I'd have a shitload of dimes. I'm not "sharing my cancer" with anyone...they have the right to get up and walk away if it's offensive. Is it rude to think like that? Probably. Do I care? Not in the least. That's why I'd make such a great politician. I enjoy pissing people off, but unlike most politicians I'd do it outright. No dancing around it and shit. I'd punch babies and draw pictures of Hitler wrapped in foil pissing on Jesus just so when I did normal stuff people would be all relieved. Or something. That'd be so awesome.

for as fair and just as you want everything you really enjoy shitting in peoples cerial. you can argue all you want but society works better when half of them arnt in discomfort or pissed off at the other half. so the solution was to ban smoking in public places, with some exeptions like bars, since its a higher concentration of smokers and/or people more tollerant of smoking. people shouldnt be allowed to smoke in hospitols, resturants, schools, malls, grocery stores, etc.. etc.. etc... what do you actually want fixed? people to say ok you can smoke where ever you want. what about the smell left behind? ever smelt a smokers car? and again after they cleaned it to de-stink it? smells not gone. i know for sure i wouldnt want someone smoking in my place of business smelling up my carpet and walls, getting smoke on my products...

see where im going with this? by saying you have to smoke outside or in designated areas your not being banned from smoking, but rather given a place much like a bar or even say a bike path where you can semi-safely use your device(whether it be a drink bike or cigarrette) without pissing other people off.

deep breath, exhale

society functions when it works together. why crap in the cerial

Good question. I want people to just stop bitching. As a fellow smoker Chris, you've no doubt put up with it as well. People make comments, give you dirty looks even though you've never met them, and the government taxes the fuck out of you even though people with other addictions (say...shopping or over eating) get off scott-free. You're right when you said I like things equal. That's all I really want. I guess I also want the people who've been giving smokers shit for so many years to know how it feels. Right now I get treated like some second class citizen merely because of the fact that I smoke. Pretty fuckin' unequal.

I take it you've never been to Europe? It seems like everyone in Europe smokes. You can smoke in restaraunts, airports, shops, and just about everywhere else. And when I say you can smoke there, I don't mean they give you some little poorly lit corner of the place. You can smoke pretty much where you like. Smokes are relatively cheap and no one bitches about anyone else's smoke. The funny thing is, it doesn't really smell of smoke anywhere and the streets are surgically sterile compared to the U.S. (at least in western Europe). If Europeans can pull it off, surely we can since we like to think that we're sooooo much more inventive than they are. The fact is that this country is just plain unfriendly to smokers, and that's bullshit. Of course I realize there are places where people shouldn't smoke. Two you mentioned are hospitals and grocery stores. I wouldn't want ashes finding their way into my operating room or people ashing all over my food. Aside from that there's very little reason to regulate it anywhere else (perhaps a natural gas field). If you can smell smoke in a restaraunt then the restaraunt doesn't have good ventalation...it's not the smoker's fault (see: Europe). Maybe I don't want to smell the entree being served 3 tables over...and in a good restaraunt I won't. But if I do I can't very well bitch and whine like some little pussy. So yeah...it's all about being fair. Some non-smokers might sneer and say "well that's how we like it so we'll do how we please". Yeah...they're douche bags who like to feel special and/or important. Do you care what a douche bag thinks? I don't.

the only thing i can say about smoking..i can't stand smoke in a restaurant..i don't know how to explain it but I don't like to eat in a smoke filled room..but other than that I don't care. you can smoke in my car, you can smoke around me, as long as its an accident you can breath smoke in my face...if its done on purpose we may have issues:D

well, everyone treated unequal. i look down on people who randomly run their mouths on their cell phones in tight public places because its unpleasent to my hearing sence. kinda the same thing with the nose and smoke. i guess people in the mid-west must be more against it than down here because as long as your not steppin on toes blowin smoke at people no one cares, no dirty looks, none of that. but that most likely has to do with the fact im in a part of the city with almost entirly college students, who as a whole mostly dont give a shit. thus our different views on it and why im happy with how it is, or at least how its working for me here and now.

GT for all the complaining you do I find it rather hipocritical of you to be complain about how the majoirty of people feel. Consider for a second that smokers, are in fact the minority.

The consumption of your product in public places and/or around other people/childern does negatively effect their well being. Granted the air quality in general is lacking, it isn't bad in all places.

The removal of smoking in some states has been for the betterment of the general public, and one step closer to the lowering the number of smokers in society.

For a man who quotes so much knowledge, is so well read and so well cultured about the ways of the rest of the world; you seem rather unable to see through your own pride.

Europe has smoking everyone, not everyone in europe smokes. I'm not sure whent eh last time, if ever you have actually been to europe; however you would notice they live different lives. They work differently, relax differently, eat/drink at different times and actually enjoy a higher rate of unemployement. To point to one aspect of europe (which is a collection of numerous countries) to state they are doing something correctly is to in large part ignore the larger picture. France which is one of the countries in europe and well known for its smokers; has been recently unable to control a sector of its polpulation who feel hard done by and have been rioting.

So i rather suspect you would just rather feel your point is correct then balance your arugment with facts, remove the conjector and attitude.

Get educated on the issues...

See...I don't get this big push to stamp out smoking. Some people complain about health costs, but I pay my taxes just like everyone else. And it certainly can't cost any more than unrelated heart disease, strokes, alzheimers, cancer, etc. etc. etc. I have been to Europe...spent two and a half weeks in Germany/Switzerland/Poland. You're right...they do live differently. They're happier. Much happier. They're more polite and helpful. As for the unemployment rate...I really wouldn't know. Then again, it's got nothing to do with smoking. So...moving on. I'm not sure if you're drawing a correlation between smoking and the riots in France...but what France does is their own business. Besides, that riot was largely the result of bitchy youth groups pissed at the way they were being treated by cops. Muslims are now making a huge deal about characatures of Muhammed printed in Finnish newspapers (then reprinted elsewhere), but smoking is rare in middle eastern countries. Would you like to draw the same comparison there as well? As much as you'd like to chide me for not throwing facts around like a monkey flings his own shit, I sure don't see you popping out any gems of knowledge. And I know why. This is, more or less, a matter of opinion. The beauty of opinions is that they're different from facts...hence the different words. I know you want to shove it down my throat that what I do will kill everyone everywhere...but I know better, so I stopped listening.

:clit:

Wish you could've seen the Daily Show tonight... reminds me of this thread quite a bit, and the "old man in sleeves" reminds me of Steve.

:D

I've just discovered another side affect for smoking. GT thanks for helping with that.

Side affect 9483: Denial of the truh.

both of you are taking is to the extremes, your not going to directly kill anyone because of second hand smoke, just like your not going to directly kill anyone from dumping oil into the drain, or burying your antifreeze in your backyard, but it seeps into our resources, mainly water contaminating it. once again wont kill you but will harm you. maybe not make you sick or give you cancer but if thats 0.01% extra in the supply then it adds up. or what about power plants buring off sulfer. once again its not going to kill you, but its an added pollutant in the air. the difference with that and smoking is smoke stays centralized, at least in its semi-toxic form, then disapates intot eh air where it cant be efficiently measuered over a population. but its similar to living in large industrialized cities with higher rates or pollution released compaired to rural areas, your going to have a higher % of people who contract airborne related illnesses, no matter what they are.

now lets look at 3 people, A B and C, one who visits boston(just an example, follow along) 3 times a week, then lives in the country for 4 days out of the week is exposed to that air X number of hrs per week. this is person A. person B lives there 24/7 and person C never goes near the city. all 3 have a probobility of contracting lung cancer just by their genetics, but assuming all is equal, then person A has the highest risk being exposed to it all the time, person B has a elevated risk due to the peacemeal exposure through the course of ther trips there and person C is at the baseline risk for avoiding the extra SO2 (sulfur dioxide) all together.

this is the same this as someone who smokes, someone who is exposed to second hand smoke when they go to bars, resturants, or anywhere else smoking is allowd, and person C is living in most of the united states where smoking indoors is not allowd indoors at all.

now theres a chance person B will experience any side effects, just like the chance person C will, but its all probobility, and the long term welfare for our entire country is what these laws are there for, and why people, even if they dont know it, dont want to be around smoke. they are not made and inforced for just some person in some spot in some instance of time. its much deeper than that.

heh my enviromental economics class in action

follow?

Ok...edit...this was fun while it lasted, but I don't think anyone feels like beating a dead horse anymore. If you do feel like beating a dead horse, feel free to PM me and I'll re-open this and you can beat it into the ground.


----CLOSED----

I'm going put in my 2 cents because i'ma mod and can. Smokers can smoke. Let them. Shut up. I don't smoke. Nor will I. But. IF they want to smoke. Let them smoke. They are passing a law here where you can't smoke within 20 feet of a building entrance...I think it's bs. If they want to smoke, go ahead. I don't think it's fair to tell someone where they can or can not smoke outside. Inside however. Fair game. Done...that's my though.

^yeah, outside it disapates fast, i can see maybne not in front of a school or something like that where there are kids around, but as long as your not blowing smoke inside then its all good

Exactly. Like I said...outside..fair game...who cares...

you don't think smoke enters a building if you're within a few feet of the door?

For the foot of smoke that enters a building and disapates in the air...I think I can handle it.

I am a heavy smoker, i smoke over 2 packs a day and none of that inside. i usually get my ass outside when i need to smoke. i think it's pretty dumb smoking inside.

they are just trying to keep em far enough away to keep the smell out, the laws wont be stricktly inforced, they are just there to make a point