if this were true, then all our millions upon millions of single celled organisms would have had to come together at the same time and not over millions of years. for example, we cannot live without say a liver or a brain or (whatever else there is thats vital to survival even on the most basic level)

this kind of example goes down to the cellular level as well, there are certain things that are vital for one cell to live that all have to be there at the same time.

but those links honestly don't hold much ground due to the fact that they are written by humans. now if god were to have written those links then hell I'm game. but in essence those links are nothing more than how an individual interprets everything, their opinions...not facts
(btw this thread rocks just cause it's giving me insight to religious ideals)

well you could say god is working through them to get that info to everyone. do you honestly think god is going to start up a website??? also that info is about as factual as anything else you might learn, basically its based on observations of the world around us.

You should know that God DIDN'T intend it to be the way it is now. In the beginning, as it states in Genesis, the world was perfect, as it will be in heaven, without sin, sickness, or any of the other evils that are so prevalent in this world. Because God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, and they did it anyway, he sent a curse onto mankind as punishment for disobeying him. Now, you might be asking why he put those trees there in the first place. Good point. The reason is, though, that God doesn't want robots who follow Him. Which is more gratifying, someone who bakes you a birthday cake because you tell them to, or because they do it out of love and kindness? God had and has the power to make a people who know nothing other than obeying and worshipping Him, but that's certainly not what he wants.

No, however many people did see his dead body be wrapped tightly in cloths and then placed in an empty tomb. There was no disputing his death. The Romans didn't take anyone down from the cross until they were dead. Later, however, well over 400 people who knew him previously and knew of his death DID see him alive again, and Thomas saw the wounds in his hands and feet.

How would that change your perspective? Just because he said it doesn't make it different. You would still have all the same arguements, since you weren't around during that time. It also wouldn't prove anymore that he was the son of God than it does now (for the record I'll add that I DO believe it proves he was the son of God).

I see the story of the serpent and the apple as more of a parable about human nature. To me, it exemplifies wanting what you can't have an the consequences that follow in doing what you know you shouldn't. That said...why would it have been so difficult for a god to make his presence known and undeniable? I mean...just because you know he's real doesn't mean you'd have to worship him. I know cantalopes are real...but I don't worship cantalopes (although they are quite tasty). It's funny, you mention that god has the ability to make people who know nothing but worship and obedience yet he doesn't...but somehow those people still exist anyway. Strange paradox, one might say.

But you're forgetting he's the key factor in Christianity. Without Jesus, there really isn't much to talk about. He's the metaphorical link between man and god. Without that link, god becomes intangiable to most. I think it would be important to hear what he had to say. If I knew I was the son of god, I wouldn't go around dictating my thoughts to people. I'd write my own book, assuming that people might want to know how my brain worked. I'm not saying he should write about what he did and where he went...but more how he thought /his thoughts on his own teachings.

It's important that you understand the difference between adaptation and evolution, because they are not the same. Evolution is a major change, always physical and observable, such as body parts changing and "morphing" into something else over a period of time. Adaptation, on the other hand, is a change within your existing self. Your body is adapting constantly to everything going on around you: light, smell, touch, hearing, and taste, as well as other changes like your oxygen example. Anybody who spends enough time at high altitudes will adapt to it. Think about it: when you go into someone else's house it usually has a different smell, doesn't it? After 15 minutes, do you still notice it or smell it? No. Concerning the soap example; that's the same deal. Just like a vaccine in humans, the bacteria begins to recognize what's killing it and either avoid it or find some other way to keep itself from dying. Is it still bacteria? Yes. It's simply adapting to its environment.

If you went to a stranger's house, without him knowing you at all, would you expect him to let you in? I sure wouldn't, and wouldn't let a stranger into my house. It's the same way with God, and heaven is his house. If you don't have a relationship with him through Christ, why would he let you into heaven? However, a stranger would meet you at the door and let you in if you had a good reason. And that's what God does when we come to Him through prayer and ask for forgiveness through his Son and place our faith in him.

Like I said a few posts back, it wasn't supposed to be this way, but as a result of Adam's sin, we all have sin and have to struggle with things throughout life.

I just dont understand why we continue to have these kinds of posts. No one is changing any one elses minds...which is why I have stopped giving my opinion on the subject.

Have you ever thought that evolution defies 2 well accepted and proven scientific theories?

First, it defies the Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. That pretty much kills the big bang theory. This law has NEVER been proven false, all throughout history, and never will be. Energy can be converted from one form to another (heat, light, chemical, etc) but never created or destryed. Now you're saying, "OK, so there was energy already there and it converted into some type of explosion that created everything." If that's true, where did it come from? And if you can answer that, where did that come from? You respond, "OK, fine then, where did God come from if you're so smart?!" Well, I can't answer that and neither can anyone else, but the fact remains that I have a basis for my faith, whereas you put your faith in something that you know nothing about, or if it even exists.

The second law it defies is the Law of Entropy, which states that all things degrade and fall into a state of disorganization over time. Again, this is contrary to everything evolution teaches. (Again, don't get this confused with adaptation, it's not the same). People don't get more healthy as they get old, and ALL things wear out over time. Your Granddad and my Triumph are good examples of this.

I can understand you saying that, and you're definitly not the first. But if the Bible IS falliable, why should do anything good at all? Why not go out and kill 10 people right now? What tells me I can't do it? The Government, you might answer. OK fine, where does the government get it's basis for right and wrong? It's simple, when you get down to it, all morals, ideals, and ideas of good and evil go back to the Bible. Without it, there is no all-powerful authority to say you should do this or you can't do this. It would be silly to argue that humans inherintely are good. Take a look around, and in the broad scheme of things, truely kind and selfless deeds are nearly nonexistant. Almost everything is done with a thought of self gain or self preservation, and I'm just as guilty of it as anyone else, so don't think I'm sitting on a high horse pointing at everyone else. If you care to admit it to yourself, you're notice the same thing about your own actions.

Which brings me to another important point: being a Christian doesn't mean being perfect or even good. It simply means being forgiven. All followers of Christ face the same problems, sins, and temptations as anyone else, it's just that we have someone to lean on when we're weak, forgive us when we sin, and a Book of inerrant truths on which to base our lives and everything else.

(actually...the conservation law remains true on the big bang theory, despite the current ideas of string theory and quantum physics that the laws of physics bend or even do not apply at the subatomic level.)
(The law of entropy also applies to evolution...no one is saying that the human species or all creatures in general are not falling down the spiral. They just happen to thrive in the current situation....ie mutations that are successful.)

Screw it...I wanna say this:
We are not special beings. To say we are the made in the image of god, is to say that a flawless all powerful, perfect being has back problems, painful wisdom teeth, and is prone to carpal tunnel syndrome

Damn...I did what I said I wouldnt do. Now, I promise promise...no more from me.

You just said that those 2 laws don't apply to this situation without giving so much as a shred of evidence. I'm gonna have to say that regarding those two things, you don't know what you're talking about. (I'm not saying that rudely, though it probably comes across that way.)

Also, you must never have read Genesis or have read my previous post. In the beginning, when humans were created, we WERE made in the image of God, and DID NOT have any back problems, painful wisdom teeth, and we were not prone to carpal tunnel syndrom. All this and more came about as the sin and disobedience of Adam. God cursed mankind for that blunder. That is why he sent his son Jesus Christ to be the perfect sacrafice for us, because with all this sin we could not be accepted into heaven by him. He accepts Christ's perfect life as payment all the bad we've done in our lives.

I cant give the reasons becuase I am not a quantum physicist...I do not grasp the subject manner enough to even attempt an explanation. I just know that on the quantum scale, physics do not apply. Yet, at the size of thematter large enough to be called such, physics does apply and therefore all matter, condensed into such a minute space, creates massive amounts of energy. Where the matter comes from, originally, comes into play from string theory, and that the dimensions are simply globs of energy waving about. Collisions may have caused OUR big bang...where as others, create alternate universes between the dimensions.
All of course, is theory based on mathmatics.

There, Im staying out of it. No anti-religious comments...though I wouldnt mind saying more.... Don't get me wrong, Im not some anti-religious atheist....well atheist maybe, but not anti-religious. I understand that it is important to many, MANY people and I totally respect that and those people...many on this site included. It is a faith thing - Ive got mine, you've got yours. I think it is folly to try to disprove something as fundamental as that.

And oh, I have read genisis.

Thanks for that. I wish there were more people who would be respectful like you. So far the people debating this on this forum have been very respectful which is rare and good. I'll continue to try and provide evidence for a Creator, but I try to do it in a polite manner which doens't offend people. As Patrick Henry said, "I don't agree with a thing you say, but I'll die defending your right to say it."

Well that's incredibly over-simplified. I have a conscious and I know right from wrong. These ideals have nothing to do with religion. No one with a shred of intelligence would state that humans are inantely good, but we do create social norms and mores that most people will follow regardless of their religious affiliation. And I'm pretty sure the concept of good and evil predates the bible. Good and evil and right and wrong have nothing to do with religion...it's all perception. That's why one thing can be wrong to me and right to you. Since there's a subjective nature of good and evil, I think it's safe to say that the bible didn't lay down the cornerstone for such ideas.

Well...again...over-simplification. If god did indeed create us, then how could we possibly be "strangers in his house"? One could even make the argument that god has an obligation to let us in since it's written that he loves us all. And if those writings are so accurate, one would be remise not to believe them. So either god's love is unconditional or he demands pennance (or attrition) and total control. It can't be both ways since philosophically the ideas cancel each other out. Also, why does my relationship with god have to lead through Jesus? I know...many christians have this insanely weird and almost incest-like idea that Jesus is god thus making him his own dad, but what about other religions? Surely there are jews and buddhists and muslims that pray to their god and worship him whole-heartedly but bypass the Jesus middle-man. Are they doomed? Doubtful...since many of them lead more good and pure lives than many christians.

Well...ok...so if Law of Conservation of Energy cancels out the big bang, then certainly cancels out god as well. Many people will respond to you "well god has just always been". Riiiiight. If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and I think it's safe to assume god would have tp be one or the other, then god can't just appear, either. Something can't come from nothing. It's impossible. There are so many theories as to what precipitated the big bang, I scarcely know where to begin. There is, however, only one statement of god's origins. First there was nothing, and then he was there. Like *poof*, I'm god! Either he's a Hoodini or something doesn't fit there. But then again that's neither here nor there. Science and religion go together about as well as oil and water. My point is that you can't chide one person for not having proof while offering none yourself.

we've had several not so respectful debates in the past lol, i think Wren and Steve can booth attest for that.

i stayed out of most of the argument just because I find it useless to try and peach to eachother about thinks we obviously won't change our minds on. faith is faith..i grew up roman catholic, but have strong faith in darwinism or something to that effect haha.

I feel the need to psuedo-revive this because an idea has just come to me. Many of you will refer to evolution as the idea that humans evolved from apes. A cunning theory made by equally cunning theorists, but wrong. Even Darwin's evolutionary theory follows the same basic principal...survival of the fittest. Now...this may not seem important to your day to day moron who can screw anything that moves, but humans aren't the only things inhabiting this planet.

I would particularly like to know your thoughts on bacteria. Particularly, antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria brought about by mankind's retardation due to the fact that we stop taking drugs when we feel better and not when the infection is gone. What does this do? That's right...the bacteria left become more resilient and immune to the same antibiotic. Much like the next time you set off a bug bomb in your apartment, there will be a roach or two left here and there. They will breed and their offspring will most likely be resistant to the poison you tried to use. Likewise, bacteria will evolve to fight off drugs (I think they do this solely to spite creationsits). In regards to the theory of degradation, this is degrading mankind's ability to fight of diseases naturally. Over the last 3 or 4 generations, we've become so dependant on drugs to fight off things like the flu and even things like HIV/AIDS, we've degraded our own immune systems. We no longer have the same potential to fight off regular everyday germs that we used to and what's worse is that these same germs are the very ones that have become immune to our bullshittery. Call it "adaptation" if you want, but the writing's on the wall. Adaptation IS evolution. Whether it's by the grace of your god or not...it's still change in favor of a species...and that's evolution.

How is adaptation evolution? If I add alot of protein all of a sudden to my diet I get gas real bad, eventually my body adapts to the change and I'm fine, so did I just evolve? No, I'm still a human, just like that bacteria is the same bacteria only now more resistent to whatever popular drug thats used to fight it off. No amount of anti-bacterial this and that is gonna change that bacteria into say a snail.

and if god created the universe and the energy within it, then he probably doesnt have to conform to any rule of the universe, since well he wrote the rules.

No, that would not be evolution, simply because I seriously doubt that adaptation would be something passed on as a beneficial trait during breeding to forward the species. I'm not sure where the snail thing came from...but again, you're stuck on the idea that evolution has to change one thing into another. Any change in a species that is passed down from one generation to another to forward the species itself is still evolution.

As for god creating the universe thus not having to play by it's rules...ok...but there's a flaw there. If god created the universe, where did he come from before creating it? Since something can't come from nothing and god can't have always just been there, he's got to come from somewhere, too.

AZ steve is right, everytime you have spoken against evolution you have been stuck on the idea that evolution isn't anything less than ape to man.

this was part of my argument a bit ago steve. the evolution of bacterial strains in order for it to continue to survive. sure the bacteria is generally the same bacteria BUT a certain strand of DNA or RNA has changed or been added that will allow it to be resistant to antibiotics. By the strain changing its form to adapt to it's enviroment it HAS evolved into a new strain.

i'm sorry, but from what I know the whole evolution thing goes hand in hand with the big bang. so if you all are saying that evolution is just minor changes due to adaptations, then whats the point? it doesnt conflict with the bible at all.

See...that's the entire point. The two CAN go together. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. The only reason people lump evolution in with things like the big bang is because they're both rooted in science rather than religion (and people assume they both contradict religion). I don't really remember saying that evolution contradicted the bible...I do remember clearly stating the possibility of the merger of both ideas (what most people refer to as "creative evolution").

right they can go together, but inorder to do so you'd have to agree that humans are infact special and did not evolve into what they are today. right?

Not really. Since I can't prove anything one way or the other, I have no idea. These are just ideas. With all of the rampant, unadulterated stupidity I see these days, I find it hard to believe that humans are special. I mean...every time a guy ejaculates he releases roughly 250 million sperm. The fact that one of those hits an egg is far from remarkable. Yet for some reason, people still tell their kids they're special. Humans as a whole work roughly the same way. We WANT to believe we're special. We NEED to believe we're special therefore it's simple to concoct a scenario which makes us...go on, guess...special. The idea that we're made in (a) god's image is not only narcissistic but somewhat preposterous. Such an act would imply that we are modeled after a perfect being making us all the more special. Furthermore, does that mean god has a heart, appendix, colon, or pelvic splanchnic ganglian? Which reminds me...if you want proof that we've changed, look at your appendix. Rabbits and certain other animals use their appendiz to digest rough folliage. Nowhere in biblical history does it detail humans eating things like grass that would be undigestable by their stomachs. So, logically, that would mean that somewhere along the way mankind lived off a very different diet...most likely a long, long time ago.

yeah you're right...humans are the only creatures on earth that fight against nature and thei enviroment..the only species of life that is surely destroying the only world they live on. if you mean we are special because we are fucking ourselves over hardcore than yes you are 100% accurate


mankind is a plaque on this world haha..i just tell it as i see it

you love that Matrix movie don't you?

we're also the only ones smart enough to figure out we're screwing something up and do something to stop it, if left up to their own, any predator would completely annihilate whatever it is that it eats. lucky for it, nature won't let it.

still, we're the only ones who contemplate the notion of a higher being, that I think would make us special.

by god's image, i don't know if that was supposed to mean physical, mental, moral or what. since at first adam/eve lived w/out sin they were in a sense perfect like god.

also during the times of adam and eve, i'm sure they're diet was almost exclusivly vegetarian, like a rabbit, since there was no death or killing. so yeah, it may have had a function at one time, and as food became more and more processed and our diet included more and more meat, the need for an appendix decreased. then again there's studies that say its a vital part of the immune system in our younger years, so who knows.

what makes you think that I "love" the Matrix, or is that just you trying to make a personal attack?...me and steve just had a talk about this movie not long ago and how it's not that good of a movie and I quote steve not to mention Keana is a bad actor.

so that would explain why we still are polluting the fuck out of our home? and continue to expand our growth with little regard to other living creatures of this earth?

Contemplation is like a rocking chair...it gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. So what if we contemplate things? It doesn't make them true. I can contemplate that god is really a metaphor for aliens who came here in space ships and created us. Does that make it true? No...but there's about as much evidence to support it as any other creation/evolution theories.

Personally, I would prefer not to be made in god's image. If you read the bible, it makes it seem like god loves us infinitely, but if you fuck up once and don't repent it's your ass in the afterlife. It's like he's a prankster. According to the bible, he gives man free will and instincts...then sets the rules in opposition. Be fruitful and multiply...but no sex before marriage or with birth control. He puts things in front of you that you are inately programmed to want, but expects you not to partake. To quote "The Devil's Advocate", "Look, but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste...don't swallow. And while you're jumping from one foot to the next, he's laughin' his sick fuckin' ass off". Ok..maybe not that last part (it's part of the quote, but debateable), but that's basically the way I feel religion works. Deny ALMOST EVERY instinct you have and you'll be accepted. It's bullshit.

As for Adam & Eve's diet...I remember them eating fruits and vegetables...but I must have missed out on the part where they ate grass and leaves and other rough folliage. That could just be me, though.

What? Huh? Did I miss that part in "how to act like a human" class? When have we ever stopped doing something we knew was stupid? We fight wars, pollute the air, destroy ecosystems, and rape our environment. We know it's stupid...but we do it anyway. I'm also not sure about predators killing off their food source. I don't know of any in modern history that's gone extinct without a little push from mankind. Ever wondered why there's a limit to how many deer you can kill in a season. Here's a hint...it's not because wolves are such good predators.

thats nice, but I know this isnt the first time you basically quoted the whole "we're a plague on the planet, blah, blah, blah" whats funny though, is you say it as if no ones ever heard of it. either way, who cares.

i guess nothing is being done to stop our mistakes? the mistakes that were first made because we had no clue they were doing something bad. i guess there's no recycling, no large groups who's only goal is to stop a ship from killing a whale or cutting down some forest, or overusing anti-biotics, or trying to make pollution free energy, or whatever else you'd like to say is ruining the earth?

you basically proved my point w/ the limit on hunting, we put limits on killing dear because we could kill them all if we wanted, yet we don't. we learned by the previous mistakes of those killing off other animals that we need to stop. if a large population of wolves or whatever moved in, would it not try to kill everything w/ out a second thought? so we have the ability to learn from mistakes and do something about the future of this planet, yet no other creature on this earth could care, seems special to me.

it still points to a higher level of intelligence, one that actually wonders where we came from and where are we going, rather than just, i'm hungry, i'm tired, i gotta poop.



so you think if you're a true believer and have complete faith and you happen to steal something during a long stretch of bad times then your instantly doomed to hell until you repent? thats not how it works. but if you were to steal something and you were a true believer something inside of you would make you feel bad for what you did, and make you want to repent anyway.

yes there's rules(birth control NOT being one of them) but isnt it funny how those rules, if followed, keep you out of alot of trouble? "no sex before marriage" keeps you from getting someone who you really don't care about pregnant, also could keep you from getting some funky disease. again its not as if you happen to have sex before marriage, that your doomed to an eternity in hell. god is not out to get you.

and adam/eve's complete diet and cookbook was not in the bible so really what the point in discussing it?

Of course there are groups trying to fix things. They make up...what...about .01% of the population? As of this moment in time, recycling programs in many major cities are jokes, hardly anyone needs whale parts for anything, people's stupidity and paranoia is the only thing causing overuse of medication, and there is no way of making pollution free energy. Paying these problems lip service is all fine and good, but it doesn't make them better. Wait...I'll be right right back...I have to go drill for oil in wildlife refuges to make the world a better place by selling that oil to China.

Ok...now that I'm back...I don't think the point that we place restrictions on killing proves anything except that a few of us had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. That, and we figured out that if we killed them off we couldn't have fun killing them anymore. Show me another species that kills for fun or "sport" and I'll give you a cookie. You make it sound like predators move in and just fuck up everyone's christmas. That's not how it works. Almost all predators will simply kill what they need to survive. I'll let you know the next time I see a wolf with a deer's head over it's mantle, though.

How...graphic. And yet...so inconsequential.




I'm merely pointing out that some people's interpretations of "the word" are wrong. No, I don't think that someone will go to hell for stealing...true believer or otherwise. And I suppose the birth control thing was a bad example since that's really only within the catholic church. I've followed my instincts for the better part of my adult life and I've turned out just fun. I'd even dare say I've probably had a lot more fun than people had all of their religious baggae with them making it impossible to do what they really wanted to do. God may not be out to get me...but he sure enjoys fuckin' with the rules.

thank you steve for beating me to the fact that no other predator kills for sport.

and AZ wtf man? I don't recall ever quoting anything about us being a plaque, I do however recall feeling that way about civilization.

your right animals don't kill eachother for sport, they do kill the young of a female so she'll let him hump her though, then again now that i think of it i have seen animals just kill something for fun, cats/mice are the first things that come to mind.

Gosei, maybe it was someone else, I can't recall the exact thread, so i apologize.

have you gotten bored w/ this and just want to be an ass now or what? just because things are going how you think they should doesnt mean they're not making a difference.

and i want my cookie for my cats/mice example, the males wanting to hump the female should get me another cookie.

Bored? No. Have I realized it's futility? Yes. This thing could go on for 1000 pages and I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change my mind. We'll simpy go back and forth presenting one example after another of something and then the other will counter it. I wasn't actually trying to be an ass...but I did feel like cracking a couple jokes to keep myself amused.

Oh...and I don't think cats and mice qualify. Cats do toy with their prey if it's small enough, but I don't think they do it for fun or sport.

true, it is somewhat tedious now.

how about killer whales and sea lions? i've seen a few videos where they just maim the hell out of them for fun.

and how does "toy with" not equal "for fun"? either way the mouse dies for no reason, same with lizards, bugs, birds and whatever else my cat drags in after it killed it for no reason.

Domesticated cats, yes. But even then they'll usually eat what they catch. My cats always do. Some cats will present their kills to you to impress you or show their loyalty. Then again...we're talking about domesticated cats. They've been bred to lessen their natural instincts and be cuddly and cute.