I remember when i got back from the dessert people were protesting us, i think they don't have anyone they care about in the service or don't make an educated decision and decide to protest on propaganda. If they knew someone that was in they would understand

Or if they had any idea what was really going on during Saddam's reign they might have a different attitude. The thing is, if your oly exposure to what happens over there is the news, then you don't have a clue as to what goes on.

Very true. That kind of crap pisses me off.

- Dzur

OH.... so saddam is the worst dictator in the world...

What was it Bush said in the campaign for president about the clinton administration's tendency to "nation build"...

RIGHHHT...

And as far as noone who isn't in the army can talk... please. that's just a bunch of b.s.

My sister actually spends LOTS of time in the middle east... I'm pretty well aware of what happens over there... obviously not as well as someone who's there...

You're also making a LOT of assumptions on my stance...

I said before we invaded... they should cut all the b.s. about 9/11 & terrorism support and just admit that bush wanted to finish what his dad should have the first time...

My problem is if we're going to start running around invading every country that has a terrible leader we've got a LOT better one's to choose from than Iraq... we also have a LONG list... I don't know about you but us against the world doesn't sound to intelligent to me.

If supporting terror gets you invaded then WHY would we be in Iraq... Saddam didn't want anything to do with terrorists... he's barely even a muslim... he's a capatalist...

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, and COUNTLESS other countries are a MUCH bigger threat to us directly as well as MUCH more supportive of anti-american/western terrorism than Iraq ever was or would have been under Saddam.

A democratic Iraq is more likely to have a MORE anti-american sentiment than Saddams Iraq ever would have.

Bush is a talking monkey yielding the power of the greatest army/nation in the world... I certainly wouldn't ever want to follow his whim.

P.S.



Oh so Bush should sit at home and enjoy his milk and cookies too huh?

Wish I could get away with going to the national guard flying antiquated airplanes and not even showing up... ALL during a draft.

Speaking under the freedom that some of us provide...

Damn straight..
and if you think saddam wanted nothing to do with terrorism you are a true idiot. Do a fucking bit a reasearch please.

http://www.intellnet.org/news/2003/02/12/16726-1.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/880255/posts

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/khodada.html

http://www.metimes.com/2K1/issue2001...ctor_tells.htm

http://mailman.xmission.com/pipermai...ch/001042.html

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/archi...296646,00.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...salman_pak.htm

Lemme know if that's enough.. I can find lots more for you.

I've managed to stay out of this so far...but this kinda gets me. This is in no way directed at you Kool-Aid, but that kind of thinking really gets to me. Yes, I understand that some military folks put their asses on the line for this country and I honestly do appreciate that...but I can't stand this "we fight to protect your freedom" holier than thou shit. A lot of people who will tell you this are the ones with desk jobs...like sending out that memo was the difference between democracy and anarchy. The ONLY war ever fought on America's part for freedom was the Revolutionary war. Everything else has either been a "go in and save their asses" police action or us lending support to another's defense (although WWII may be argueable on that point...possibly the civil war as well...but that was our own doing). The people in Iraq right now are in no way, shape, or form protecting any of my freedoms at the moment. If anything, they're perpetuating legislation that is eliminating my freedoms due to the war on errorism (no...that's not a typo). Bush has turned into this little kid on a playground. He's not big enough to fight his own battles so he pays a bigger kid to do it. It's just that he's got a MUCH bigger kid doing his dirty work in the form of the United States armed forces. If anything our prescence in Iraq is only pissing more and more people off, much like our being in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf "war" (quotations used because we haven't actually gone to the trouble of actually declaring war in over 50 years). Military folks like to quip to non-military folks about how they protect all of our freedoms and whatnot...but it's pathetic to think the only way to protect your freedom is by picking up a gun or flying a plane. Yes, many of these people put themselves in harm's way and I respect the courage it takes to do so...just don't chastise me for not wanting to be part of something I see as immoral (although fundamentally necessary to a certain extent). Why the hell are we even in Iraq? Colin Powell came right out and said we couldn't find any direct link between Osama and Saddam. So beware countries who have no direct link to terrorism...we'll bomb your ass. Weapons of mass distraction? Well...we've been there over a year and still nothing. And to think those UN bastards wanted us to hold off until we found them. Saddam's out and that's great...but it the job of the citizens of that country to overthrow him, not ours. Especially if our own government will admit we can't find a direct link between Saddam and terrorists. The bottom line? At the moment my freedoms are just fine...don't feel like you need to protect them. If they're ever in danger, I will be the one fighting for them. Unlike our dictat...errr...president, I can handle my own dirty work.

GT...I respect what you are saying but I think you're an idiot...I'VE stayed out of this for as long as I can but what you said pissed me off...you one of those ignorant fucks that's only patriotic when your asshole has just been saved from being seperated from your backside....I also agree that you have alot of desk jockeys in the military that preech that how the world is a safer place due to that fact that stapled two pieces of paper together. But where was your ass when 9/11 happened?? There are alot of people in the military and the government that keep stupid shit from happening to the U.S. Whether it's wrong or right, this country was founded on the fact that we have a set of nuts and aren't afraid to use them...

Oh...and you can fight for your own freedoms, huh? Well how about you get your ass dropped off in the middle of Iraq or Saudi Arabia and we'll see how long you last......

Ok..

First off, let's but this WMD shit behind us. Iraq DID have them , and there was 100% proof of that. He didn't sprinkle a 100,000 kurds with magic fucking fairy dust.

Contrary to what many people believe, we don't have freedom because of the protestors that have nothing to contribute to society, we have out freedom because of war and bloodshed.. nothing more.

Now going back to iraq.. the politicians, as well as the people back home that have not left their 600 population town of ala-fucking-bama have no clue what really goes on there. You people cannot possibly fathom what goes on there, and what went on there on a day to day basis in that country.

Patriotic? Who ever said I was patriotic? I don't think simply being born in a certain place gives you an obligation to say that you love it. That is to say, I do enjoy living here...I think it's the lesser of a whole lot of evils. But we're still a deeply flawed society and there are a lot of our own issues that get pushed aside in favor of ideals in other nations that have little or nothing to do with us. Where was my ass when 9/11 happened? Fairly intoxicated in front of my television shaking my head...pretty much the same place as everyone else, including the vast majority of the military. Your hypothesis that this country was founded on the fact that we've got a set of "nuts", as you've eloquently put it, is actually incorrect. We're a country founded on the idea that our ancestors wanted freedoms they didn't have elsewhere. Yes, we were willing to fight for them and we say we still are. But having as much power as we do comes with an inherent responsibility to use that power correctly and wisely. Going to places we have no business being and bombing them into the stone age is not a responsible use of power. Don't get me wrong...I know Iraq was generally hostile towards us, but they in no way posed a direct threat to us. Indirect, perhaps, but so do Lybia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Palestinian population, etc. etc. etc. I suppose you could drop me off in the middle of Iraq...but I'd drop my shit and walk away. Why? Because I don't feel that any of those people are threatening any of our freedoms. Without that threat I don't see justification in killing them. They're shooting at us because WE came into THEIR backyards and started shit. You know we'd do the same...and then bomb the shit out of them...if the roles were reversed. Now we're the ones trying to change another people's way of life. What do you think would happen if someone tried to do that here? We'd fight back, of course. I'm not trying to insult the military as a whole, but I think the decision makers have massively fucked up. There are real legitimate threats to us that are much more pressing than what a 3rd world country halfway around the globe is doing right now.

V8...I don't dispute for a minute that they had WMDs in the past...just look at "gulf war syndrome" and the incidents you mentioned with the Kurds. But we weren't going in after the weapons then...we went after them now and got boned. Of course protesters don't do anything...they're a bunch of whiney little hippie pussies with too much spare time. That being said, violence is not always the way to gain or protect. I don't think anyone really wants a war...even the troops over in Iraq. I'm sure they'd be much happier at home with their families. You just have to weigh the importance of these actions against what can stand to be accomplished because of them. In this instance, I don't see us being any better off for having gone there. And the knowledge of what goes on in Iraq day to day is not knowledge that I want. If I did, I'd go sign up at my local recruiting center or become a journalist.

But just so we are straight... people have been over there since the first gulf war.. All of us want to get this over with and not return to the desert.. If we leave now, we will be there for the next 30 years. It's too bad people don't have the common sense of a paperclip to realize that.

Well how long are we planning to stay after we'll supposedly be handing over power over the summer? I mean...our prescence there after handing power over to the Iraqis to govern themselves is redundant and pretty insulting.

i think well be there far after june 30th. well be there till mid summer 05 imo.

There will be perm air bases there indefinatley

There already making this placve a permanent Air Base here...

I wouldn't recomend pulling out of iraq under any circumstance at this point...

Now that Cowboy george has started it we HAVE to finish it...

And as far as the WMD arguement...

What are you F'ing kidding... when did Saddam bomb the kurds... IN THE 80'S...

More importantly HOW did he do it... Oh that's right... with OUR support... bush's daddy and rumsfield are basically personally responsible for ALL of those killings...

As for the Gulf War Syndrome stuff... Yeah I'm well aware... one of my brother's BEST friends (who lived with my family for a while)from highschool died VERY mysteriously about 4 years after he got out of Iraq... he was doing demolition of un-inspected weapon storage facilities...

Bush Jr. was looking for this war before he got ellected... I'm sorry but whatever links you provided about Saddam's envolvement in terrorism don't give me ANY regret having said pakistan Iran or Saudi Arabia are MUCH MUCH larger parts of the problem than Iraq ever was or would've been.

I'm all about fulfilling our commitments... When we pulled out abruptly during the first gulf war I FREAKED OUT... and I was protesting the begining of the war...

Bush SR. PUSSED out like a little girl when too many negative stories started coming out about the "highway of death"...

I have nothing but respect for those who serve... and feel they should be supported in a MUCH more sincere manner then they EVER are... but that doesn't make me have to agree with their end goals...

NO ONE is always right... unless you're in the military... then your commander is ALWAYS right... regardless of how retarded his decisions are... That's not my cup of tea.

I'll do whatever it takes if I think it's neccisary... but I'm not going to support the invasion of a country because it's leader antagonized us... they did NOTHING to us ... whether they tried and failed or not. Forget all the innocent Iraqi's killed injured or affected by the invasion... Saddam didn't really even do anything other than F with us... We have NO proof of ANYTHING that would warrant the invasion of a country...

Not even REMOTELY the amount of cause the clinton admin. had in LOTS of it's military actions which were condemned as "nation building" by republicans and bush himself...

But NOW... he's all about america's "responsibility to bestow freedom" on people who never asked for it...

Now having said that I am WELL WELL aware of how many Iraqi's are DESPERATE to get out from under the thumb of Saddam...

But when they wanted to do it themselves (first gulf war) we ENCOURAGED iraqi's to rise up against Saddam.. but when the negative press got to be too much for Daddy bush he pulled out and left ALL of those people to Saddams whim...

Which I guess worked out for us in the end because we can now draw attention from the COMPLETE AND UTTER LACK of WMD, by pointing out all the mass graves we helped fill up...

Are you military as well?

If you're talking to me... it's already been covered...

I'm an un-appreciative cookie eater apparently...

Who's not entitled to his opinions... So I guess all that fighting for my freedoms everyone who's ever enlisted has done didn't do any good.

Do some research.. he gassed the kurds after the first gulf war when they tried to uprise against saddam. It was actually his son that was in charge of crushing the kurdish uprising to be accurate.

Oh.. and as for the freedom that Iraqis never asked for.. how do you know that????? I guarantee you that you base that off of the attacks by BAATH party members still loyal to saddam and their lavish lifestyle they USE TO live. Unless you have personally talked to iraqies and asked them, then you don't have a damn clue. Thank you.

I gotta say I'm with nonuv on this...for the most part. We should've learned by now that whenever we arm a country, especially in the middle east, they tend to turn on us and then we paint them as the bad guy. We gave money to the Afghanis to get rid of the Soviets, they used the same weapons against us when we went in this time around. We armed Iraq to fight the Iranians and then secretly armed the Iranians to fight the Iraqis...now both countries are "threats" to us according to our leaders. Then there's Israel. We'll help them beat the Palestinians into submission because, let's face it, there's a ton more jewish voters than muslim. No one in that conflict is right...they're both wrong. We just happen to fund one and not the other.

Does it really matter whe he gassed the Kurds? He didn't pose a threat to US with those weapons. It's the job of each individual country to defend themselves. You also have to ask yourself if the Kurds would've risen up if they had thought we'd abruptly pull out like that? Sure, we didn't make any promises but we fell sorely short of our supposed commitment to the cause of the Gulf conflict (sorry...I just can't bring myself to call it a "war").

As for whether or not Iraqis asked for the "freedom" they may get from our being there (which still remains to be seen), it doesn't matter if they did ask or not. If they really wanted freedom it's THEIR job to fight for it, not mine or yours. Hell...in it's infancy America took on the largest empire in the world to gain their freedom. So either we stepped in where we didn't belong or the Iraqis didn't want said freedom as bad as many would have us think. As the saying goes, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I think the issues that people try to make out of this situation are in large part irrelevent. Bottom line is that it's the status quo's responsibility to revolt against a government they feel is corrupt or flat out just not working. That job doesn't fall on a country half way across the world. Unless, of course, said country has a vendetta from a previous altercation which was left unresolved. Then, apparently, it's perfectly fine to "liberate" people who are perfectly capable of liberating themselves. It's a question of legitimacy...are we justified in being there doing their jobs for them. In my mind, the answer is no.

I just want cheap gas. where the hell is it?

So you were here for 19 weeks huh? That's crazy. My MOS is only 9 weeks. On my last PT test I ended up doing 80 situps, 74 pushups, and ran the 2 miles in 13:58. I don't think it's too bad here. We have a lot of freedom. What battalion were you in? I am in Delta 447th Signal BN. Right now we just got done learning how to load COMSEC into the equipment and how to get our power up and running. This week we are going to start troubleshooting the equipment. We took our first test on friday. It was too easy. I got a 98% because I didn't put the Comm Modem into "operate"... I left it in "equipment side loop back" when I was setting up the KY-57. But other than that, it was all gravy. Right now I am PV2- Private Second Class(E-2). I am hoping to be promoted to PFC by the time I leave here but I don't think that is going to happen. We will see though. So yeah, hit me up and let me know what Battalion you were in. Peace.

I wasn't fighting with Daviso. I was just curious. What you were describing didn't seem quite right is all. Don't be so quick to jump on your guns. How long have you been in and what unit are you in?

i wasnt reffering to you about fighting, that was reffered to V8.
i have been in the service for a almost a 1. i went to boot last june. 3rd Ordnace Battalion (EOD).

Here ya go folks...your fearless leader.

http://www.musicforamerica.org/misc/...s/bushjoke.mov

no workie workie....:no:

You need Quicktime to watch it...it works fine for me.

I have Quicktime but it tells me that a required compressor cannot be found.....I dunno...:dunce:

whining on the internet isnt going to change anything, nor is it going to change anyones opinions.

vote GT40 for pres.. his motto, dont do shit until the bombs are droppin on your doorstep.

Wow...you never cease to amaze me by missing my point entirely AZ. I'm not whining...merely stating my opinion. I don't think we've ever had a justified reason for invading Iraq or any other country for that matter. If the citizens of a given country want change, they can effect it. It's not our job to do so. As for "dont do shit until the bombs are droppin on your doorstep", you're soooooo far off from the message of that video. I swear, sometimes you display the kind of intelligence that makes me wonder if you know the difference between a sneeze and a wet fart. In that video clip, not long after 5 U.S. troops were killed in Iraq, our "president" (and I use that word lightly) makes light of not finding any of the supposed WMDs that he was so damned sure were there. It's a funny thing...read HERE and you'll see that before 9/11 people refuted claims that Iraq had such weapons. But of course afterwards we were so damned sure they had them. Go figure. I'm not about waiting until bombs are "falling on your doorstep" as you so misguidedly put it. But I'd like to see some credible intelligence that displays that an enemy is a clear danger to US before we go in and bomb the shit out of them. North Korea is perhaps the ONLY country in the world that poses a significant direct threat to us and we've taken such threats with a grain of salt. I don't see Saddam (even if he were still in power) launching any sort of weapon that has the capabilities to target the U.S. directly. Therefore he MUST pose the greatest threat of all. Oh...and he's got oil. That too. If you don't feel at least a little bit lied to by the current administration then you're a fucking dolt. They lied so you would feel a need to attack a country that has absolutely no capabilities of harming us directly. Once again, as for harming us indirectly, that threat is not deminished by our presence there, only magnified. I know, I know....it's in your blood to disagree with everything I say, but trite remarks belittle us all.

So you think that society has been lied to about our reasoning for being over here?

In large part, yes. We tried to sell this same package to the rest of the world and for the most part they laughed at us. Granted, the weapons weren't the only reason the prez had for going in, but it was the biggest one. No weapons equals no threat which equals zero justification. If these weapons were such a big threat why weren't we in there in the 80's when we KNEW he had them and was using them or after the gulf conflict when we KNEW he was using them. All we had this time were some grainy B&W photos from space that show what was definitely possibly a problem. So yeah, I think in large part we've all been lied to, whether we believed the lie or not.

I'm done with this thread.........

Yup.......

Indeed...same here.

I know that I've got two more years left and I am considering getting out....going back to school and be my own boss...

You do realize that EOD Tech is a B billet right?