Oh i didnt know we were talking budget - if we are talking budget, yes, it is easier to get more from a D than just a swap.

But, if you want more functionality/reliability/drivability out of your car, then Swap in a real motor (b series of corse) and put down some serious numbers so ur car will be able to have things like power steering, a sunroof, full interior, a system, street tires, and room for another person.

Quality before quantity.

That graph could mean anything - BTW, i could go online and find a graph to prove just the opposite of whatever it is this mystery graph is trying to tell me.


BTW - whatever you do to a D you can always do to a B and get better results so this mystery graph doesnt mean anything.

Mod for Mod a Bseries motor will win every time.

edit: sorry lost my temper.

here's the setup of the engines on the graph

d16y8, zex cam/springs, skunk2 IM, b16 TB, greddy 15g, FMIC, 290cc, 12psi.

b16, ctr cams, t3/to4E,FMIC, fmu, vafc, 440cc 12psi

Your graph makes no sence. The D has a higher grade of cam than the B, and it has more parts to it.

Granted the B is flowing twice the ammount of air and fuel, but thats not the point i am trying to make here.

Two motors with two different setups will yeild 2 different results. Like i said before, i could use a graph to prove anything.

Lets start simple here. If i put all the mods to my motor that you have on urs - test pipe, header, exhaust, flywheel, ect - then my car would get more out of those mods than yours would because i have a bigger motor.

Really? May I ask how you know this? If you can back this up with evidence then by all means I agree that a Bseries is superior in comparison to a Dseries, until then your opinion doesn't mean squat. * not tryin' to sound like a jackass*

like i ALREADY said: were not talking about mod for mod were talking dollar for dollar.

cash stop repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Ok, i am stating a fact. If its not a fact, then prove that i am wrong. Logically, a more powerfull motor will make more power than a weaker motor if the motors are given the same mods. **if what i just said wasnt true, then prove it**

Its true like it or not.

Ok, Lets take our 2 cars. you put a street/strip cam in ur car, and i put the equivalent offered by the same company (2 cams in my case) in my car and who is faster?

You get an intake and i get an intake - who is faster?

You put Greddy's 19T kit on ur car, and i put their 00 civic SI kit on my car - who's faster.

I will answer all 3 of those for you: ME

The only thing a d series has going for it is that it is in most Civics to begin with, other than that, nobody would ever swap one in their car.

if we want to use you as an example: hmm what could i do with 5 grand?

um...actually, its quite the contrary, there's lots of people that swap in a d series as there are swapping in a b series... so let's not make any more assumptions cuz it strays us from the real issue...

Kinda tough, im still trying to tell Sohc_sheetec_Tuner that Mod for Mod a B series is gonna win every time, while at the same time arguing about reliability and practicality with you lol.

Dollar for dollar, a D will be cheeper to build untill its power level is finally reached.

As for me, i would rather have a quick spooling turbo setup on my current motor than a bigger slower spoolin turbo on my old motor - even if the cars put out the same exact hp and tq, the B would still be better because it yeilds a more responsive setup.

yes it is more expensive, and i am not denying that at all, but no matter what setup you have on a D, a less agressive setup on a B will be more responsive an yeild the same gains.

let's go find out! i wish i had the money to...;) actually, that wouldn't be fair because you'd be pushin' more psi..i think..

mr. " cash is tryin' to be slick"... (hehe :D ).. how exactly do you know that mod for mod that your car outperforms mine everytime?? that is your personal opinion , and we all know that personal opinion doesn't mean a thing in terms of using it as evidence...

And, umm, i have a better starting point - even if we both used the same kit you would still looze. Not to be a moron, but a D could never go shot to shot with a b

Buddy, i have said it before and i will say it again. A more powerfull motor will see more gains than a smaller motor when you do the same things to each of em.

My car with AEM intake, DC 4-1 header, and THermal Classic catback will do better than yours or az's cause i have a more powerfull motor.

Its not an assumption, its fact - at least untill you find me an instance where a D and a B were given the same mods and the D put out higher numbers.

news flash a b16 and d16 is the same size engine, so if thats your basis for a b16 getting more from a bolt on than a d16, its wrong.

Then why does a stock civic SI beat up on ur car?

Just cause they displace the same doesnt mean anything - i still got 45hp on you. I mean seriously, the new Ford ****ass has what 150hp and 150 tq? By that rationale it should outperform my car in every way, but when i look in my rear view mirror, its back there with all the Dseries powered hondas - what is that about??

your not beating any d series civic with 5 grand in engine upgrades into it now are you?

Hey, if you put 5k into a D and 5k into a B the b will still be faster.

The B is a better motor, if you build it, you will be better off than if you built a D

you missed the whole point i've been trying to make.

No, i got distracted from your point.

I realize that it is cheeper to build the d since its in ur car to start with.

But, it doesnt offer the advantages of building a B.

then say it! say "Getting 250-300hp with the d series is cheaper than swaping to a b series"

and dont bring up any crap about reliability as i've already proven your reliability point wrong.

:yes:

i'm too tired to argue right now, i'll be back tomorrow.. ;)

i thought picking what to eat for breakfast is hard... this is even worse...

isnt this great?

I never said that it was cheeper to get 250hp by a motor swap. If you started with the B in the first place, yes, it would be cheeper.

No, you havent proven my reliability point wrong at all. A Dseries making 250hp is working much much harder than a Bseries doing the same thing.

I just re red this thread, and i see no proof of the impossible.

The D aint ment to be a performance motor where as the B is.

Lets put it in easy terms, if you get your D to make 170 crank hp (my stock hp rating) then the D is going to be working much harder than my motor will be to make the extra power - thus making it less reliable.

If thats not true, then i should swap in my old POS d16 and junk my B16

Alright since i slept through all this, i think what cash is trying to say about the boost is this:

to make more power from a d, you need a larger turbo. Larger turbo spools slower. (depending on bearings and trim etc, of course) Usually, to do something like double/ almost triple the power of a D series youre going to have to turn the boost up really high. BUT they are saying people are using 15g's...are they basically just going sans wastegate with these ? seems like 12 psi is pretty much the most a hairdryer that size will put out ?

im just asking for info really.

and, to explain my situation, i already had a blown D. I also didnt really wanna go the turbo route on whats basically my first car. So, preference being stated towards n/a setup, a B is a little easier to reach my goals. :)

didn't read the whole thing but heres the end of my thoughts on it.. they are pretty simple..

all of you with b16 swaps... as stated the lack of torque is the problem.. through nitrous injection ($500 TOTAL cost) i make way more torque AND am faster in a heavier car... so i still have $2500 left of the 3k you spent.... with that i could build an almost race motor.. OR a milder build TWICE... and thats right.. STILL be faster

everyone keep saying.. well i can build my b i can build my b.. sure you can... how much more are you going to spend on that?2k?

ok so now you have 5 THOUSAND into just the motor and i bet you can spin tires all the way down the 1/4... drag racing is not JUST power... when you build your n/a b.. ill go to 2 stage direct port.. and suspension including slicks.. and ill STILL have spent less and ill STILL win.. you may have better dyno numbers.. no wait.. you WILL have better dyno numbers.. but who cares if you lose... the point is without being pretty race preped you will not go faster than 11's and it is very posible to get a single cam into the 12's with the right build AND suspension...

there was a kid named eric who lives near me he had a turbo h22.. it made TONS of power.. he ran a mid 12... because he could not hook for shit..

OC you need to hurry up and do that n2 thread so i can juice when i move out.

dont tell that to the people running 8 second quarter miles in their hatchbacks!!!!!

im not sure if you are beign sarcastic or not.. but i have yet to see an 8sec honda on stock type suspension..

B16's Yuck!!! I hate B16's. Screw the B16, and get the B18B. Bottom line the B18 engines are a better starting block than a D series for power. It has a better aftermarket, more tunability, and stock to stock will handle more abuse. I do agree that its not to smart to go with a B16 if u have a perfectly healthy D16. No more displacement, no more torque (atleast not really, and the only reason is cuz of the cam), and u just spent all that money for a swap and its only a bit faster than the D16Z6 in the same car. I was eating up B16a CRX's with my D16Z6 hb with my bolt ons and weight reduction. Most of the B16 CRX's were only running 15.4's.

Really? Hmm.... Well my D powered HB was eating stock B16 powered Civic Si's alive. Not to mention I raced a Civic Si with the exact same bolt ons as me, (I/h/e). Lets put it this way. He lost! Although later in the night he got his car down to 14.9. Which was a tenth away from my best.

I agree a little bit with Cash here. WTF was that person with the B16 thinking? CTR cam on boost? moron......

u said FWD suspension. U never said anything about stock.

actualy i said streetable.. which discounted extremely rigid rear springs, wheelie bars, etc... things you would NOT normaly run on the street

depends on what u call streetable. My version would prolly be different from yours. One of my friends has 900 pound H and R drag springs in the rear of his Accord and that car is very streetable.

ANYTHING is "streetable" but i think you know what i meant... there are not a ton of daily driven 8 sec hatches running around

theres not a ton of 8 second anything running around

no there are not. My point is that it is possible. Just when someone thinks that front wheel drives have gotten as fast as they are going to get, someone else proves them wrong. Five years ago people laughed at the thought of an 8 second hatchback (especially the domestic driving redneck imbreds). They said it wasn't impossible. Now here we are. Hell we have all-motor ones running low 10's. Thats impressive. Who knows what we will be running five years from now. Prolly pretty damn fast with the new K series.

Basically, there is not a big enough difference between the B16A and D16 to make it worth the extra money.

its not worth trying to make a honda blazing fast either, but we still try do it :D

no a b16 is just more EFFICIENT at making power with 1.6ltr of displacement, more effiecient cause it has a higher compression and a better flowing head/cam. if my engine is making 170hp its burning the same amount of fuel as a b16 making 170hp. ALSO like i already said and some on this site have learned, a rebuilt motor with race ready forged internals is going to be more reliable than some engine from some car with some unkown amount of miles on it and unknown care history.

Once again i've proved you wrong, so stop repeating this argument.

why not? overlap can be tuned out for the most part on a DOHC engine with cam gears, can it not?

i am not too familiar with the d or the b series, but i see the b series as not being tuned at all from the performance POV, while i see the b16 pretty maxed out performance wise. So i see both engines maxing out at about the same hp numbers, only the d being cheaper to get there:yes:

so youre saying the extra cam and a nuch better transmissiion is worthless.

sure u can tune some overlap out, but not all. It just is not a good cam to boost on. U would do better with a GSR cam, or a turbo cam. One of my friends had a Prelude Type S with 7 pounds of boost (yes I know its a different car, but it is a high overlap cam like the CTR). With cam gears trying to get as much overlap out as possible. I believe he went -3 degrees on one side, and +3 degrees on the other cam (or something like that, I could talk to him if it really matters). Basically he pushed the cam timing as far as u can take it safely on a street engine. Dont get me wrong cam gears made a world of difference on the Type S cams but, then he changed out the cams for the H22A1 cam and it made a huge difference over the Type S cams once it was tuned with cam gears. I know they are not the same engines, but the results and ideas are similar. BTW he ran a best of 13.5 with slicks with 7 pounds of boost, and an exhaust.

once again its about thermal efficiency....

yes, overlap can be tuned out with gears...it'd be a good way to make even more power all the way to 9grand.
Problem again is all the tuning and playing with it that youd have to do on the dyno...
98spec ctr cams would be best - in 99 itr and ctr cams became the same

i find it hard to believe going back to stock cams made a "huge difference", any dyno proof?

hmmm b16 power at no where near the price and no gamble:



bolt ons(including a skunk2 IM) and a cam

power was still rising at redline so with just an increase in the rev-limit and a test pipe 145wheel hp should be very easy, this is with the stock 9.2:1 compression